getting kids un-stuck from failure to launch mode with Mark McConville, Ph.D., author
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Show Guest: Dr. Mark McConville
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Show Transcript:
Speaker: Brenda Zane, Dr. Mark McConville
Welcome back to Hopestream. I hope everyone's doing well. I hope that you are finding some comfort and connection through these episodes. For today's episode, I talked with a psychologist who has a pretty awesome book out that I listened to the audio version of this summer. It's called failure to launch while you're 20 something hasn't grown up and what to do about it. It is amazing at investigates the root causes of why kids today are having such a hard time transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Does this sound like anyone you know? This is why I had to get Dr. Mark McConville on the podcast. He is a clinical psychologist. He has a private practice in Beachwood, Ohio. And he specializes in adult adolescent, emerging adult and family psychology.
He's a senior faculty member at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland, and he has lectured and taught widely on the subjects of child development, parenting, and counseling methodology. He has also written two other books. One is called Adolescent Psychotherapy And The Emergent Self and the other is called The Heart of Development, Gestalt Approaches to Childhood and Adolescence. He has got so many other publications, I can't even list them all but you can check them out on his website, and all the other things that he's doing how to work with him at MarkMcConvillePhd.com. And I will put a link in the show notes to that so you don't have to remember that.
I was so impacted by Dr. McConville approached this topic that so many parents deal with that I asked him to come on the podcast and talk not specifically about teens and young adults with substance use issues but about parenting through these difficult situations, regardless of what your child is struggling with, and it was insightful, super practical, I think it will give you some really, really good stuff to think about. And with that, here is my conversation with Dr. Mark McConville.
Dr. Mark McConville, thank you so much for joining me today. This is such a treat, because I listened to your book over the summer, actually, and have been really wanting to have a conversation with you. It's one of those books that I was like, oh, I've got to get everybody to read this or listen to it. So I'm really excited to have you on today. Thanks for taking the time to be on home stream.
Dr. McConville 05:43
It is wonderful to meet you. And I'm really pleased to be here.
Brenda 05:47
Well, we will get into all things about our kids, and how we can help them but I'd like to start off my podcast with a question for you just to let people get to know you a little bit. And what that is, what did you want to be when you were growing up?
Dr. McConville 06:05
Oh, my goodness, a teenager, I wanted to not have to move beyond being a teenager idea of becoming a grown-up, I can see this in, you know, looking back, I think overwhelmed and terrified me. And, and strangely, it's why I became a good student and stayed in school. And to this day, I recommend you know, the best way to speak to clients is that the best way to avoid growing up is stay in school. Right?
Brenda 06:38
A lot of PhDs. Right,
Dr. McConville 06:40
I got to the point where though I can do this, you know, this world is kind of limited. And you know, I'm able to navigate it. But I don't want to look over that fence and actually get a job and grown up responsible.
Brenda 06:57
That's funny. Well, and that's so interesting, given what you do and where you are today that you know, you know the shoes well of the young people that you're working with. It sounds like then?
Dr. McConville 07:11
Well, I do, I didn't run into the same some of the same difficulties because I was in school and it was a different era. No, most of my close friends in college, they got married within a year two after college now. I think most of them are divorced. I'm not.
Brenda 07:29
Congratulations,
Dr. McConville 07:30
thank you. But I met you know, really the love of my life. And she was very, I like to say to people, her, her practical IQ is about 15 points higher than mine. She just is comfortable in the world. And so so you know, I've become comfortable over time. But really, when I look back at myself as a young person, those feelings of being 22 going on 16 that feeling of fate, I'm faking it, you know, I'm terrified that the adult world won't take me seriously. But I'm also terrified that they might take me seriously. Right. And so looking for whatever diversions, you know, and in my, in my case, it was studying existential phenomenology, rather than, you know, working at GameStop. And, you know, becoming, an ace at some video game.
Brenda 08:26
Yeah, that's so interesting. Very, very true. Well, so you wrote this book, Failure To Launch and I love the I'm not sure what you call it, if it's the subtitle or the pre-title, why your 20 something hasn't grown up and what to do about it. And there's so many parents that I talk with who, whether or not their young person is dealing with substance use issues, some of them are or some of them aren't. This is such a huge topic. And so I would just love to hear a little bit about why you decided what was the impetus to write this I know you deal you know, with people all day in your practice, but kind of what what was it that made you finally say I got to write this book.
Dr. McConville 09:08
It's a little difficult to explain I in graduate school, I learned to become a journaler. And that we were taught to write what they called an integrative journal. So what you're hearing in class, what you're reading, what you're learning and practice therapy, your own individual personal craziness, trying to learn from those things, integrate them make sense of them. And when I my first real job out of grad school, I quickly got myself appointed as the adolescent therapist in a large mental health center because nobody wanted to work with teenagers. And there was really very little literature that was adequate to telling you what you do with these kids. And so I just journaled like crazy. I mean, I have a stack of notebooks where I'm trying to figure out this kid or this issue or this problem. And that led to me writing my first book, which was on adolescence. And it was a sense of, Oh, I think I've already written it, I just have to tease it out of my journals and put it together. And the same thing happened with failure to launch. As more and more of the referrals I got, were 20, something chronologically, but their psychological and relational dynamics, were really quite adolescent. And again, there's no literature and there was no satisfactory treatment model. You know, you send a struggling 22 year olds a therapy, as a parent, you're paying for it. Good luck getting the therapist to even talk to you. Because after all, he's an adult or she's an adult.
Brenda 10:46
Yeah, they legally can't.
Dr. McConville 10:48
That's right. Well, I figured out how to make that happen. I'm manipulative and a good way I will that kid, I'll ask parents, is he or she coming? As an adult, they're motivated. They've asked for this, they have their own issues. They seem to be mastering the basic curriculum of growing up? And if the answer's yes, then when they come as an adult, I don't really need to get involved with parents. But so often, the answer is, Well, no. And then I say, Well, I'm happy to see him or her, but you will have to accompany on the first visit. So the parent is, is in right from the get-go, I know I have a sales job to do with the kid, like, I'm trustworthy. I'm gonna, I'm someone that's likely to get you and can actually be helpful to you. But I, what I learned is I have to pull the parents into the work. And that's so I did years of that kind of journaling. Because, again, there wasn't a literature that I could turn to the coach man how to do it. And at some point, I said, You know, I figured out a few things. And, and I really want to sort of package them in something that I could share with other people.
Brenda 12:01
It's great to get the background on that. And I think it's so true that there's, you know, that when the kids aren't bought into therapy, or coaching or whatever it is, and especially if the parents aren't involved is just a really confusing situation. Because as a parent, you don't know what your child is talking about. And when I say child that might be 21, or 22 year old, right? It's not necessarily what we think of as a child. But I want to say reading your book, but listening to the book, that anxiety is really something that you see as an underlying issue. And a lot of these kids and I would love to learn more about that. When, when you say that what do you mean by anxiety, kind of helping these kids stay in this kind of stuck mode?
Dr. McConville 12:47
Yeah, well, I would say, first of all, it's almost universal. For people in that age group, let's say between 18 and 22. Even if they're doing the work of growing up, they're a successful student, are they, you know, they're working holding a job. But think of it at that age, what do you really know about how the world works? You know, precious little, right? And yet, you're especially, you're thinking that I'm supposed to know. And so and this is more so more true for males than females? There's this shame, you know that you know that the joke about men won't ask for directions? Mm hmm. Well, there's a lot of truth to that joke. men, men don't, you know, I have to ask for directions. I somehow compromised my masculinity. I mean, it's absurd. But it nonetheless is deeply embedded in our culture. And so when you look at that, in the context of a, say, 20 year old, young man, there's so much that he doesn't know how to do. And the kids who, who developed the capacity for reaching out and asking, how do you do this now, even if it's going to an older student, or someone you work with, but sort of milking the world for mentoring, because otherwise, you're left alone with your what feels like it feels like incompetence, it's really pre competence. And I've encountered what's really heightened my understanding of this is encountering it in what seemed like ridiculous situations, the mom that is lamenting to me that she cannot get her 19-year-old to call his dentist's office and reschedule his appointment, because he's got a conflict with work, and he won't do it and won't do it and won't do it. And you think, what could this possibly be? And then and so I had someone like this, maybe a year ago, and I I brought the mom in with the kid, and I just I asked her, I said, Would you mind making the call but putting it on speakerphone. So because I hit director, she said, okay, she calls you No need to reschedule his appointment. Of course, any dental office staff is thrilled that you have called.
Brenda 15:15
Yes, they are
Dr. McConville 15:18
but our 19-year-old is like, this is an adult who's gonna be mad at me because I'm calling to change my appointment and they're gonna yell at me, you know? So he's thinking more like a 12-year-old emotionally. And it just shows up as a kind of avoidance. Interesting. Yeah, I don't, I'm just not going to do it. My another kid that I put this story in the book, who would not take a bus to get to work, even though it was a very simple, straight bus line. And I watched him and his dad go round and round and round. I just sat back, like What in the world? And finally, I dismissed the dad. And I get these things, often by reflecting and trying to remember Oh, yeah, that's how I was. And I said to him, you don't know how to take a bus, do you? And he just stared at me. And I said, do you pay when you get on? Or do you pay when you get off, and he just you know, his ears blushed read. But that's the kind of thing I get anxious about. I don't want to be out in public just fumbling around looking stupid. It's a little easier to pull that off at my age, you know, people like to help people my age. But, when you're 20 you just feel like, I'm supposed to know how to do it. And so it's this anxiety that, leads to avoidance and denial, and, and rarely are kids really aware of it even themselves. They just know, I don't want to do it. That's stupid. You know, that's that kind of dismissal.
Brenda 16:53
That is so fascinating. Wow, I can I could go so many directions with that, because I can think of so many examples. But
Dr. McConville 17:03
let me share an experience. I, some years ago, my wife loves to travel, I don't but she said we're going somewhere. And she's Slovenian. And I said, Alright, we'll go to Slovenia. So I was able to kind of finagle an invitation with a therapy Institute and Rania to come and teach. So of course, I could write off the plane ride and, and, you know, it really paid for the trip through that. So we're in the city. And there's some reason I can't remember what but I needed to go to a bank to exchange something to do something. And we're on the street and she says, oh, there's a bank. I said, All right. I'll go take care of it. I walk in the bank. It doesn't look any it doesn't look like any American bank I've ever seen. I there aren't there's another like a bank of teller windows. I can't I have no idea who I'm supposed to approach what the protocol is. And I'm immediately it's like a flashback to being 20. It's like, yeah, I felt this all the time. This like I'm supposed to know, I sometimes refer to it lovingly as my synagogue experience. Whenever I go to a synagogue event, for I have a lot of Jewish friends. I have this, this really neurotic anxiety of like, I know, there are rules, but I have no idea what they are. And I'm afraid I'm going to do something really embarrassing, which of course never happens. But it's I think that's the kind of anxiety that so many young people have,
Brenda 18:41
I think you're right. And I'm wondering about what your thoughts are about social medias influence on that, whether that's something that could be making it worse? Or are there potentially ways that it can make it better? Like, you know, kids now have so much more access to YouTube? Or how to videos or whatever, like, maybe y'all can learn things?
Dr. McConville 19:02
It could be a huge asset, but honestly, and maybe it is an asset, but I haven't had kids come in and say I googled the question, how do you take a bus in Cleveland, Ohio, you know, someone say that, so I I know it certainly, it certainly helps me. When I'm at the edge of my knowledge or ignorance. You know, I do it every week. How do you… but I don't I'm gonna ask some kids. If they do that.
Brenda 19:33
Well, and I'm thinking it could be more for practical like, that's a great you know, YouTube's University of YouTube is wonderful for practical things. But I when you were talking about, I love milking the world for mentoring because there is in so many of the parents that I work with the moms I've worked with are single moms. And the dads are really not very involved from a day to day standpoint, and I have to believe that that impacts Not only just their lack of their knowledge base, but the feeling of interrelationship where they feel comfortable to say, Hey, I don't know how to take a bus or I don't know how to do whatever it is. So what do you think about that?
Dr. McConville 20:17
Well, perhaps that's a big part of my curriculum, when I'm working with a family is I'm trying to get the parents to begin thinking of themselves more as consultants. And that's a really being a consultant is a very special role. Because when you're a consultant, you have no power. But you have lots of wisdom, knowledge and a lot of information. But, but that information needs to be accessed at the initiative of the console T. I'm trying to get the parents to not step over the line and say, Oh, you've got to do it this way. Because that'll turn any 22 year old, into a 16-year-old, sort of instantaneously. Yeah, but I'm also working on the 20 something saying, Look, your parents know all about this kind of stuff. You know, you're telling me, there are no jobs available, I'll bet your mom and dad together, have found 16 jobs in their life, and that they have lived through every bit of frustration.
And, of course, you don't know how to do a job interview. I mean, you've never done one. But you know, you have two experts living under your roof. Once you ask them. And, you know, it's hard if you're that age, you know, if you're my mom, and I'm 20 years old, it's hard for me to come to you without feeling 12 Yeah, and that that's really what we're trying to get is a relationship where the kid feels enough confidence that they can see the parent as a resource, rather than as an authority, you're going to tell me, I'm doing it wrong, that kind of thing. Yeah. But also the parents, you know, for the parent to say, Look, I know you're looking for a job. And I know, it's economy's pretty rough out there. And look, if there's anything I can do, I've done this stuff before. Just let me know, um, you know, any question big or small? That kind of declaration of availability? Is there? It's so so different from? Well, you, you said you were going to make three contacts a day looking for a job? Have you made your three contacts today? I mean, that's just an invitation for regression. Right? It doesn't, it doesn't get you anywhere. But and, and I want kids who see their parents this way.
I one of the images I like to use is, these kids are, it's like, it's like your next day or your next door neighbor. And what they're doing is they're building a waist-high fence between your turf and their turf. So there is now a clear boundary. And of course, there's a gate, you know, but between the two spaces, but they want the latch to be on their side of the gate. So they get to decide when to invite you in. Right, as opposed to you just kind of burst in on your own and, and get into their business.
Brenda 23:12
That's really that is a powerful visual to remember. What age do you think? Because I love this idea of shifting from sort of the parenting and telling how to do this or that and transitioning that to that consultant role. What age? Should we be thinking about doing that? Does that happen at like 15 or 19? Like, when do you transition that relationship?
Dr. McConville 23:36
Well, I, if I can give a little context, I have a model that I've written and published. And the premise of the model is there are three fundamental ways that we influence our children, which is what parenting is, I'm trying to influence my children. One of those is supervision, you know, I'm in charge, it's bedtime, and we're going to turn the TV off, and I can carry up the steps so we can walk up together. But, you know, I I'm in charge of the agenda. The second and that's, of course, predominant with younger children. The second is negotiation. You know, there's a little horse-trading going on, like, Alright, I'll let you stay up and watch the end of the show. But you got to promise me that you'll get yourself right to bed. And when I wake up tomorrow morning, and your alarm goes off, you're going to be a pleasant citizen of the kitchen, you're not going to be you know, yelling at your younger sister and giving your mom a hard time. So we quid pro quo, I'm giving you something, you're promising me something. And then my job as a parent is to hold you accountable. Right. So you if you get yourself up on time and you're pleasant enough in the morning, I just say good job. Thanks. And if you don't, it's like you know, next time. You want to stay up later. I'm going back to supervision right? Make a decision.
So supervision, negotiation. And then the third is consultation. And the difference is that in negotiation, there's a power sharing, and supervision, really the power. And I mean power in the best sense of the word. The power is really it should be on the side of the parent. But in consultation, the parent is a resource rather than as a center of power. So you're kind of conceding to the kid, you can make this decision, you know, whether it's, what major Are you going to be? It drives me up a wall, when I hear parents say, Well, I'm not paying for anything other than a business major. I think it's crazy. Yeah, it's just like, that's the only way to have a happy life is to be a business person. Right? It's nuts. Right. But to say, you know, this is a hard decision. I know, you're trying to pick out a direction. Anyway, that we can be of help. I'm happy to do that. But we can see that the authority to make this choice is on your side. Now we of course, we have limits. You know, I'm running into more parents whose kids are wanting to study cannabis production. Yes. Right. Right. And of course, it is becoming an actual industry. But for those parents, it's a tough, you know, I'm glad I'm not in their shoes. Yeah, you know, what? Do I view it as a legitimate business direction? Or do I view it as just a, you know, an avoidance of the world of adult responsibility? But still, those are, so that's the consultation thing. It really signals the relationship between adults.
Brenda 26:43
Right? So I'm guessing by the time you have a senior in high school, you really want to be operating from that consultation?
Dr. McConville 26:53
Primarily you, you won't be there 100% I look, the fact is all three, if you've got a five-year-old, you should be doing some consultation. You know, is that really the jacket you want to wear? I mean, that's, that's a spring jacket, you know, it's really cold out? Are you sure? That's what you wanted? You're sure. Okay, if that's what you want. So you're as a parent, you're making this executive decision to gear down into a consultant role. But as your kid gets older, it's not quite so left up to your executive decision-making by the time you have a kid who is near high school graduation. You, you know, I suppose you can put your foot down and say absolutely not. And there are some kids who are so impacted by your disapproval, they'll toe the line. But that power to assert authority, or even to get into a negotiation, it diminishes over time.
By the time my kids were seniors in high school, I would say much of what I was doing was consultation, certainly around decisions, like what were they going to do with school? That kind of thing. But we were still negotiating, you know, you want to use the family car? Well, you know, there's a, there's a quid that goes with that quo. No, there are we are still negotiating. And, and I'm expecting you to, you know, it's my car, after all I want I want you to comply with whatever kind of parameters I put on it. Right? Certainly, when when you get kids who are into their 20s, who are who aren't doing the bit about growing up, like they are, they're acting and thinking like teenagers, and then they provoke you into parenting, like the parent of a teenager. That's a trap. And, and parents in that state often feel profoundly helpless. Like, I have no leverage, you know, the toolbox that I used, what are you going to do with a 22-year-old, you're going to ground them? Right? What are you going to take away their allowance? I mean, you know, even if you could do those things, they would just be regressive. So so you really Your task is to try to upgrade the relationship. So even if you're not going to behave like a young adult, I'm going to begin to treat you like a young adult. I'm going to work on reorganizing my behavior.
Brenda 29:24
What would be some, a couple of things. Let's just say I've got a 17-year-old and this is why we loved we could do a whole nother episode on COVID. But right now, you know, we've got a lot of parents who've got a 17 year old at home, kind of not really even showing up for the online classes that they're supposed to be doing. Because now school they're not even going to school. They know they're smoking some weed, they haven't really done anything that they're supposed to be doing around the house. They're pretty unpleasant to be with. You know, mom's worried for sure dad may or may not be there. What are you know, like that, like you said, the toolboxes empty? I think a lot of parents feel like that like, Oh my gosh, my toolbox is empty, I used to be able to do all these things. Now I can't even take away the computer because they have to have it for school. Taking away a phone is irrelevant. I can't ground them. I can't you know, like, what are some things where you
Dr. McConville 30:22
might even that there actually is software now available, and I'm learning this from parents that I'm working with the parent control software has finally caught up with the cleverness of teenagers. So you can take control. But even if you do, it's, it's not the kind of relationship you want with your 17 year old, right? I have long believed that 17 is potentially the single most difficult year to parent, because that kind of assertion of parental authority just doesn't it has a half-life, you know, I like to say by 11th grade, forget about supervising your kids homework, you know, you can do it with a 13-year-old, you can say sit down at the kitchen table, open up your backpack, let's look at your assignment notebook. Okay, I wanna I want to know, what's your plan for getting this, you can do that, it takes some resolve on your part, and the kid won't like it, but you can do it with a 13-year-old. But good luck with a 17-year-old, it would just be it would be like a Saturday Night Live Set, you know, skip it. It's absurd.
So you're really the strategy that I say parents to commit to, is the kind of relationship building. Look, you know, even if it says, look, you and I have to get together, I know you're 17 your feet, you're ready to be out on your own, but you're not, you're still here under my roof, we have to get along. So I want to know what you need me to do differently. I want to be able to tell you what I need you to do differently, what you're trying to do is engender a spirit of collaboration. Now there's some kids where that goes nowhere, they're really, they're kind of delinquent, they are really drug addled, you know, they're too close to 18 to send them off to wilderness treatment. So you don't, you really don't have a lot of purchase on, on how to how to leverage get them to do things.
So the strategy I have the most success with is the parent really says In effect, well, let's pretend you're a teen, and you're an adult. And that we have to have a collaborative, in a sense peer to peer relationship about how to live under this roof together. And you really try to sell the kid on that having advantages. And maybe you do makes you do some compromising. But if you have a 17-year old that's really committed to not being collaborative, who really is in a kind of Screw you. You just don't you know, the day they turn into a team. You may not feel it or thinking but you have leverage instantaneous leverage. Let's talk about what we both need to do for you to continue to live here. Right. And if we both think we're going to kill each other, I'm going to be your friend, I'm going to help you find another place help you out a little bit financially, I'm going to, I'm not going to, quote kick you out. I'm going to do it as someone that loves you dearly, but thinks we'd both be better off and have a better relationship. If you had your own place. Now it's not it's easier said than done. But it is doable. And when your kid is 17 it's not doable. Unless you've got you know, your parents are robust, you know, grandparents, and they can take a man or you've got a a sibling, an actor uncle that just has a way with this kid. But that's, that doesn't happen very often.
Brenda 34:03
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's I think you're right with 17. That's such a difficult time. And it's it's tricky for the parents, but it's also I think, tricky for the kids to really know that that next phase is looming closely. And, and that can be scary. And they might not even know that they're scared about it. But there's something that's just inside is just kind of imploding.
Dr. McConville 34:28
That is so true. That is so true. I can't tell you in the course of my career, I have hundreds of times heard, just wait till I'm 18 I'm going to be out there the day of my birthday. Right. And that, that chatter, just it goes, you know, it dials down toward mute as the 18th birthday approaches. And it's all about like, Ah, you know, it was a great threat when I was 16. But what in the world would I do with that now?
Brenda 34:59
Yes, are there things that I just keep going and thinking back to this idea that sometimes maybe our kids aren't doing things or aren't motivated, or they look like they're not motivated? Because they're really in this stuck mode of? Like, I don't really know how to do that, whether it's something that's tactical, or if it's just something that's sort of a bigger thing, like a way of thinking, are there questions that we can ask them? Or how do we start to pull some of those things out of them without them feeling stupid without saying like, why don't you? Why don't you know how to take the bus? Like, are there ways that we can kind of prod for that and help in that scenario? Without, I don't know, insulting their kind of intelligence?
Dr. McConville 35:48
it probably depends a lot on what the issue is, you know, a lot of the families that I work with, and that, that sort of 17 is the preparation for college. Yeah. And that is always best left to some other adult now, depends a lot on your school, your school system, if you're in a private school, they probably have a, just a crackerjack department of college counseling. If you're in a large public school, it's not such a robust support system. But anything you can do that, that gets the kid working with some other adult, and hopefully someone that knows a little bit about college admissions, so that is best farmed out. It's just like, tutoring, you know, how do you tutor your own 17-year-old, how many packets like riding a bucking bronco erupts in an argument? You know, I just, and you can both be wonderful people and love each other dearly. But I just think it's some I would violate some mysterious law of nature.
For things like, you know, you want to see the kid working, doing something constructive? It does, it certainly helps you I mean, you make yourself available, let me know if I could help. But it also is really important to create necessity. You know, the situation where I run into this, often is 16, 17 or 18-year-olds, the school year is ending, Summer is here. And they want to live one of those surfing beach summer movies of you know, partying in, in the sand. They you know, they don't want to do anything. You know, this is I've worked hard for high school. And it's, I've deserved a vacation kind of thing. Right? And which I think is a terrible idea. I just, it's a terrible idea. So I've seen the the approach that I've seen work best is when parents it's very and I've observed some parents doing this. And I've since kind of formulated it for myself, where they will take a non negotiable stand on something that has sort of the quality of an abstract principle, and that will be non negotiable.
So there's something like, Look, let me tell you what's not happening this summer, you are not going to lie around the house. Just hang out with your friends, and not do anything that's not happening. Absolutely not happening. Now. Whether you want to get a caddying gig at the golf course, whether you want to go down to Highlands and see if they're hiring in the supermarket, whether you want to one of your friends, get together and create a lawn service. Whether you want to work for your Uncle Joe, you know, because he always needs landscape workers. There's this whole range of things, you can volunteer at the old age home, I'm not going to fight with you about any one of those things. But I am going to fight with you about you're going to do something constructive. Now kids will, if you push them to an individual thing. I really want you to talk to your Uncle Joe about getting on one of his landscaping crews. Right? It's like throwing the kid a rope. And what's he do? He takes the rope and he pulls back and now you're in a I don't want to do that. I don't even like Uncle Joe. He doesn't pay enough and you're not you're, you know you've gone nowhere fast. But I've never heard a kid take a stand against an abstract principle. They just are not philosophers. They're not saying well, this is unreasonable that you don't want me to have a son. They don't just don't get into that argument for some reason. But if you push a particular concrete option, they may very well use that as their that's their now their battleground. They're gonna, you know, hell will freeze over before I go work for Uncle Joe.
Brenda 39:45
Yeah, you've just sort of handed them an argument on a platter when you do that
Dr. McConville 39:48
Creating necessity, like well, you know, I kind of stipend to do spending money during the school year, but it's not the school year, so you're capable of earning spending money. yourself, or, you know, it's time for you to get on your own phone plan, your 18 now, you know, or, or we're gonna have you pay for your part of the family phone plan. I remember, my daughter had just finished her first year in college. So she was 19. And she came home and she's just a sweetheart. She turns up in the book frequently, all with her permission, by the way, but she is it's clear, she doesn't declare it. But it's clear, this is a summer of getting back with all my old friends. And I, I was never a very good parent, when it came to laying down the law. My father had been so expert at it, he's probably in the hall of fame for that sort of thing. And in my, my part of my rebellion is I was terrible at it.
But I, I finally after kind of circling, did you look for that job? Did you? Are you coming up with anything doing that for two weeks, I said to her, you go back to school in September, you have to have and I named $1. figure, whatever we had figured out was, this is spending money that would get you through a college year. I said, if you have that dollar figure in your savings account, I will write the tuition check. If you don't, if you don't, that is perfectly okay with me. Because you can just defer she was a terrific student at a good school, you can defer and just pick back up in January. So I lost the power struggling kind of mindset and said you can do whatever, you can make your own decision on this. But I am making a decision. This is the part in the book where I say you really have to sort out whose businesses What? Yeah, and in a way, you could say what for a 19-year-old, you decide you don't want to work, I guess you're entitled to make that decision. But I'm entitled to take that tuition check for money I can barely afford, when you're not pulling your weight.
She had a job as a waitress within about four days, at working at a restaurant where one of her friends worked. And what was different is she, she rent we stopped playing the parenting power struggle game. And I was just I had this sort of FYI. Matter of fact, you can your choices, your choice, are respected, I'm not going to be angry with you, I'm not going to be disappointed. But you should know what my side of the equation is. Yes. And it was very, you know, I sort of stumbled into it. I honestly don't think I quite knew what I was doing. But it was very powerful. How when parents can find that space. And again, always easier said than done. I talked with lots of parents from around the country who have read my book, and we set up consults, and, you know, I know the principles that they need to apply, but figuring out how to do it with this child in this circumstance. It takes some brainstorming, and sometimes it takes some luck in terms of what a kid is capable of.
Brenda 43:11
Well, I want to get to that in a minute to find out how you do work. But there's two things that really struck me about that little scenario with your daughter. The first is that you were okay. Like you said that and you would have done it. And I think that that's a really hard step for a lot of parents to get to to be able to say, okay, you can skip a quarter of school. They're so invested in their kids lives that that is not even conceivable that they would say so I think that's really important for parents to hear is well,
Dr. McConville 43:43
But just to be fair, I knew that if she decided to have this, you know, the Summer of Love or whatever. She was a capable student. She was a good citizen, she was well on her way to adulthood. So I knew that if she collapsed, the fall was short, right? But for a lot of parents, there's this feeling of if I'm not there to kind of boil them up, that it's a precipitous drop. And, and, you know, I had a mom, who I had seen her once and then I got an emergency contact from her six or eight months later. And her kid had actually improved his lot a great deal he was he'd been trying to make it he was like 19 or 20 trying to make it with his band going nowhere. And she got him. He enrolled at Kent State, which is a little downstate from Cleveland and taking classes commuting. And he was taking three classes he's just doing much better.
And she calls in a panic saying he has an appointment this morning. It's a Saturday morning in traffic court, their local mayor's traffic court. He had three speeding tickets over the last year. He's completely ignored them hasn't even opened the envelopes. And he's got to get there. And he's got a hefty fine to pay, which she was willing to, to front him the money. And he was refusing to get out of bed and yelling all kinds of vile things at her as she was trying to wake him up. And she calls me What do I do? And I'm, you know, easy for me to say, well, don't do anything, right? And she says, Oh, yeah, don't do anything. So they'll take his license away, for sure. Then how's he going to get to his classes? I mean, all the progress we've made will be down the toilet. And he'll be back to try to make it with his band.
And, you know, I remember feeling I'm not often tongue tied. But I remember feeling like Oh, crap. She's, yeah, what would I do in her shoes, it only later did I kind of investigate a little bit and, and realize that if they take your license away, they'll still let you drive to school, they'll let you drive to school and work. And so it actually was kind of workable. And she ended up going down and telling the, you know, it's a local community, so tells the mayor, whoever, the magistrate a cockamamie story about his home. And Barry's been throwing up all night. And, you know, here's the whatever, you know, hefty chunk of money to make things, right. Yeah. And parents, that's, that's kind of a parable. For the parents get into this situation where they believe something catastrophic will happen. If I don't, you know, write that check if I don't, can, you know, continue. And most of the time, they over know, they're going to the worst case scenario, right?
Part of my job as a clinician and any therapist job should be to evaluate what's the likelihood of the worst case scenario? What if he makes a suicide attempt? Well, those are things we actually can evaluate with a certain objectivity. I'm pretty good. At sussing out, you know, how much of a risk a given individual presents versus when they're just being manipulative? Right. You know, what, what, he'll she'll ruin her credit rating? She'll never be able to? Well, let's stop. And have you asked your financial advisor, you know, how does a 21-year-old recover from a bad credit rating? You know, I mean, so Aaron's go to the worst-case scenario, and they're protective. You know, and they're protective.
You know, all enabling starts out as support, and nobody's out to enable their kids. They set out to support their kids. Yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing is enabling and support look identical coming out of the gate, they come identical coming out of the gate, I reached out to extend a helping hand, you know, if just bedraggled woman with two kids, approaches me outside the grocery store and says, could you help, and I whip out a $20 bill and say, of course, I can help. And she goes in and she goes to the, you know, the baby formula section, I'm patting myself on the back, I think I'm a pretty decent human being. But if I, if I see her go to where the, you know, the wine rack,
I'm like, Oh, shit, I've been, I've been taken. Well, my action was the same. And it's what the other does with that, that determines whether what I've just done is support or enabling. And so same with our kids, you know, we extend something that's meant to help them springboard forward in their growth and development. And if they use it that way, you know, we feel pretty good about our parenting. And when they don't, we often find ourselves kind of trapped. Like, now what do I do? You know? Yeah, I just pulled the rug out from under him. So it's, it's a very, I have I come at this, I think primarily with my heart because the parents who contact me are such good people. And I said this to my wife once, I did several dozen people. And I said to my wife, I have never had a group of clients that I have found so wonderful to work with. And she lied to me. She said, Mark, first of all, they're all obviously very committed to their kids, or why would they buy your book, trade? Second, they actually read your book, and they liked it. There are probably a lot of people that read your book and didn't like it. They're not contacting you for support. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that is My experience of parents are just they, they care so desperately. And then sorting out well, what is enabling? Where is it safe that I could take a step back? That's hard to do. And often it does help for the parent to be consulting with someone that does this, that you know that a parent counselor or therapist that really knows this age group, it just helps it gives you confidence, like, Okay, I'm not doing the dumbest parenting maneuver. And in all of history, I'm really doing something that could be quite useful and motivating.
Brenda 50:33
Yeah, yeah, that's very true. And I think your point about the worst-case scenario, and playing that out is really important, because we do tend to react quickly. So in that case, I'm so glad you gave that example about the kid being in bed when he needed to be somewhere. And we take it on his parents to solve that problem for them. Because we think it's going there's this domino effect, well, if this happens, and then that happens, and that happens, and that's going to happen, if that happens. And that happens. And all of a sudden, our kid is 45 years old, living, you know, in our basement, when really, they could just go and fix it the next day, or whatever it is,
Dr. McConville 51:13
that happens, I talk to a parent who I talked to over the years, every now and then, every three or four years. They have they're quite well to do. He's a very successful professional. And their daughter is 49 years old, is quite capable, bright, good education, lives completely on the family dual lives, they have like a vacation home or something, they have another home other than here in Cleveland. And she lives there. And it's really you think, Wow, it can it can you know, it can go on forever.
Brenda 51:48
Yeah, and that's what all these really well-intentioned parents are trying to avoid, I think is what can I do now when I'm dealing with a 17-year-old, so that I'm not dealing with a 49 year old? Right?
Dr. McConville 52:04
On one podcast, I did the interview, they had a call it was a radio show. And a gentleman called in and he said, Well, at what age can we begin to work on these skills that support launching? And I said, Well, I think probably around three, you know, you know that, that playground that just littered with every toy in the play box, you know, and you go in and pick it up on your own because it takes you about five minutes to do that. Whereas it takes you 45 minutes to get the kid and bring the kid in and say we're gonna clean up this room together, where she, where should we start? How about I get the blocks, and you get all the tracks and put you know that really thoughtful gold standard parenting is is really takes a lot of time, a lot of energy, you know, it is easier to pick your kids code up and put it on the coat rack than it is to walk up two flights of stairs, and to say, Come with me, please. You know, walk them back down to the kitchen floor and say, Would you please put that on the coat rack? And you know, we don't have an infinite amount of time and resource and energy. And so we do efficient parenting but then we sometimes deprive kids of those experiences that say, Yeah, no, I'm, I'm accountable.
Brenda 53:24
You know, I'm so glad that you mentioned that. Because when our kids are little, and we do that it is hard. But it also gets harder and harder to hold them accountable and do those things that do take extra time and energy as they get older, you know, in those teenage years. So I'm glad that you mentioned that because we do still have to invest the same amount of time and energy into those little things. As they get older so that they know that we're watching and we're on it. And it can just be exhausting, honestly. Well, we are running out of time, unfortunately. But you know, you have worked with teens and young adults for so many years. You've seen patterns, I'm sure across families and across young people. And I'm just curious if we had to hang-up in five minutes. And you know, we didn't get a chance to actually do this entire interview what would be the message or a message that you would want to get across to parents who are listening and really, you know, struggling with a really difficult child right now.
Dr. McConville 54:46
Speaking from the standpoint of a therapist, no matter how screwed up a kid is if he knows or she knows that their parents love them and not in a sort of enabling indulging, you know, being populated way, but they know they matter. That kid has a chance, if you think of you never quite know what, what vacuum that poor kid is filling with his drug use. But certainly the deepest of all is a sense of not having any worth. And usually, usually for those kids at some level, I mean, they're screwing up. Right? You know, they're, that's why they come to your attention or my attention. And they know it. And so they, they're already down on themselves.
I ended the book with the mom of a heroin addict daughter, and the mom had done everything she could and I think, put herself next to poverty to get this kid treated. She was late 20s, 27, she finally gave up - what she gave up on was trying to fix her daughter, and really looked and said, so what's available. And what they agreed to, was to me that some diner there somewhere in New York City, so they would meet at a diner Sunday mornings. And that was it. And they would talk about, you know, whatever TV show they're watching, and how are the Mets doing and when I don't know, whatever their shared interests were. And it was just in the spirit of maintaining a connection to this kid. And this sort of wonderfully delicate moment, at the end, the interviewer said, Gee, I'm almost afraid to ask this, but how is your daughter now. And she said, she's actually in treatment now. And she put herself in treatment. Think Fingers crossed, I don't know the outcome. But I just thought that's such a, it's it tells dramatically something that I've witnessed as a family, parent, consultant, family therapist, many, many times, that it's like an emotional umbilical cord.
Brenda 56:45
Right, it is such an umbilical relationship, I think that's a great way to put it. And for moms and dads, it can be so so hard to learn how to either stretch that cord or at some point, cut it so that our kids have the chance to learn on their own grow on their own, and, and really have those experiences. So thank you for that, I really appreciate it. I know, it's hard to boil everything down into one, one thought, but I think that's a really, really excellent thought,
Dr. McConville 57:24
you know, I didn't crash into a wall, like maybe some of your kids, but I had the whole inner world of self-doubt and anxiety and, and just kind of avoidance and denial and found the adult world to be a forbidding place. And so I, you know, I'm I know, something of, of your kid’s world and of the world you're dealing with. But my message to them is, I made it. And I made it in large part because I had parents who never gave up on me. And when I screwed up, they had a way of turning it into a learning experience. And I I pointed out that. I said, Well, they never said it explicitly. I always knew that no matter what happened, they would always have my back. So somehow that message was just in the relationship. And it was there was an era when parents were not, you know, so I mean, I never get off the phone with one of my kids who are both adults without saying I love you. But parents in that era didn't do that. They had to be transmitted by ESP, I think but I absolutely knew it. And and that's what I want to say to parents, you may feel like you're not making an impact right now. But stay with it, do not give up, do not give up, do not give up.
Brenda 58:50
Well, couldn't leave off with anything better than that. So we will, and I will put in the shownotes resources, the the book and your information so that people can find that. And for parents who are out there wondering if it's possible to work with you obviously, get in read the book, because it's incredible. It just goes into so much detail. And what I love is you give so many practical scenarios. So parent could certainly read the book, how else might they be able to work with you?
Dr. McConville 59:23
Psychology just has not yet the way medicine has worked out a kind of overarching licensing. So you know, if you're in New York, you can practice in Pennsylvania. So they have telemedicine, but psychology is lagging. So I can't do that what I can do, I can do consultation relative to the book. So it's, it's kind of a loophole. And so I do that when I first tried to do is and I'm compiling a list of therapists, it's always best if you've got someone local, someone that can be on call. And also I'm not going to do that on a sort of ongoing week after week basis. So I When I do consult with people, I try to help them kind of get their ducks in a row as parents to sort of outline. So what is our new parenting agenda? What kind of supports do we need? Is our kid open to talking with someone? If not, what's our strategy? If he is how do we find someone? So yeah, I'm certainly available for that. But I when I can, I really like to get people tapping into resources locally.
Brenda 1:00:28
Also, if you want to get on my email list, so you can get the email every Wednesday that I send out just as a way to support you and what you're going through you can go to Brendazane.com/email and just drop your email there and I'll send you a short kind of one-pager email on Wednesdays, and I would love to be able to do that for you.
You might also want to download my free ebook called “HINDSIGHT, Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted To Drugs.” It is packed with information that I truly wish I had known back in the darker years with my son. And so I share it now in case it might be helpful to you in your journey. You can get that at Brendazane.com/hindsight, and I will put a link to both of these resources in the show notes as well.