finding the right addiction & mental health treatment options for teens and young adults with Jenney Wilder, All Kinds of Therapy

Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community

The Stream Community: online and app-based community for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol

Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted to Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here

Guests: Jenney Wilder, www.AllKindsofTherapy.com

Show Transcript:

SPEAKERS

Jenney Wilder, Brenda, Brenda Zane

Brenda  00:55

Hi and welcome. Today's episode is from my perspective, really going to be one of the most helpful conversations to hear if you're a parent who is lost in the ocean of treatment options for your child. If you have been on Google looking for a place that fits your teen or young adults unique needs, you have felt the anxiety and frustration of not knowing what information is important, who you can trust, what questions you need to ask, and on and on and on. And I know this, I've been there. I've been on Google at two o'clock in the morning, trying to desperately figure out if my insurance would be accepted at this place. But then what if I had to move him to that other place? And would they accept the insurance and will they have the right kind of therapist and there's a million other questions that you have when you're in that scenario? And today's guest has a very unique perspective on the world of adolescent and young adult treatment because she started out as an educational consultant helping parents place kids in programs. And she did that for many years. And so she's kind of literally been at ground level going out and visiting these places. And now she has transitioned into running a really amazing website called All Kinds of Therapy. And it's an online directory of treatment programs that she created in a way that really lets parents compare programs side by side and find out everything that they need to know in one place from a trusted source, not on Google. 

Brenda  02:32

So my guest today, Jenney Wilder holds her master's degree in education and she is the founder of this incredible website, all kinds of therapy. She began in the field of educational and therapeutic consulting in 2005. And throughout her career, she has advocated for families and their children, while you know, going out and visiting and collaborating with treatment programs all across the United States. So she's been there boots on the ground. really working face to face with these treatment program owners and therapists and knows them very well. Her comprehensive examination of treatment options and her continued assessment of the clients that were enrolled there within the programs resulted in her developing this extensive library of treatment program facts. And Jenny recognize the opportunity for a dynamic factual directory that families and industry professionals could rely on as a starting point in this really incredibly confusing and emotional journey of working to find a place if your child is in need of help. And in 2015, she made an ethical choice to kind of disconnect from being a consultant and closed her consulting practice so that she could create an unbiased voice for parents and their young adult children and providers to seek the facts about treatment and intervention options. This conversation was great. It's wide ranging, and you're going to hear how Jenny's really vast knowledge of this space helps her provide parents with an invaluable resource when they're looking for help for their kid. And I don't want to say anymore because we talk about a lot. So I will just let you listen in now to my insightful and informative and fun conversation.

Brenda Zane  04:31

Welcome, Jenney. I am so excited to have you on the podcast today and really excited for all the information that you're going to be able to bring your wealth of knowledge to the parents who listen so thanks for joining me. 

Jenney Wilder  04:43

Thank you for having me. It's a super exciting what you're doing Brenda. 

Brenda  04:48

Yeah, thank you. I you know, I'm finding as I go on and on with this, that it's kind of interesting, and it may be I'd be curious to hear your perspective on it but in in this field which is a new field to me I come from the corporate advertising worlds This is a really new world for me but what I'm finding is not very many people want to do what I do. It's not really a fun topic. It's not sexy. It's not you know, anything like that. And so I it's really interesting just to be in a role where people either like, Why in the world are you doing or they're really want to help you because kind of nobody does it. So I don't know if you found that in your in your journey along the way.

Jenney Wilder  05:35

You know, it's funny that you mentioned that I mean, I you know, since I was quarantined for several months with my small person, and then we hit Mental Health Awareness Month in May I kind of feel like the 2020. Maybe the decade needs to be mental health, mental health awareness decade. I think, you know, whether it's mental health, whether it's substance To use the ko curry, the good, the bad and the ugly, what my experience is always that whether I was placing kids in treatment or I'm emailing with families to contact my website is that we have so much shame around mental health and the stigma that's attached to it is so hard for people to digest. And, you know, if a kiddo has cancer, everybody comes over with the casserole or whatever, but if a kiddo goes to the hospital, or needs their stomach pumped, no one talks about it. And and it happens so often. And I think the part that I loved for the families when I was placing kiddos and treatment and they're working with their families, is that is soon the amount of times I heard from clients who were getting on an airplane to go to a parent workshop or something, and they were sitting next to the friend from high school on the same flight, and they couldn't believe that their worlds were colliding again. norther friend from college or, you know, it's just so much more common and I wish there wasn't the shame and stigma attached to it. I mean, right now during the pandemic, mental health is at an all time low. Kaiser Family Foundation did a study, I think it was March or April, saying 45% of all adults are having major mental health problems. Michael Phelps came out and said, during the quarantine, it was some of the worst mental health he's had in his entire life, you know, and he was really upfront about it, which is amazing and wonderful, because if Michael Phelps can be struggling, then it's okay. Right for all of us. 

Brenda Zane  07:42

Right. Somehow that makes it okay.

Jenney Wilder  07:45

Yeah, and the APA just recently came out with a study that they did with Harris Poll that said, parents with children fared worse in the pandemic mental health wise than people without with people without children. So there's like all these statistics and people talking about it, and yet we don't talk about it. And that kind of makes. So that's, that's something that I really, you know, hold near and dear not just because of the pandemic, but I feel like we have an opportunity within this nightmare of 2020 the gift that keeps on taking to talk about these things and also, you know, when your kiddo is struggling in the middle of all this, yeah,

Brenda  08:29

Yeah, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot what people are dealing with and it's, I also feel like then that now the opioid epidemic and the the amount of awareness that was starting to kind of percolate through the media and getting a little bit more attention is now it's not even on the back burner like it's in the back alley. I don't even know where it's gone. But people you know, we already had a health epidemic going on that You had a pandemic. And people are just not even thinking about the fact that kids are still overdosing kids are still shooting up, you know, kids are still going through, none of that stopped when COVID-19 hit. It's just now not either being treated or, you know, it's just it's mind boggling. And I know that for parents who are dealing with this, a lot of them and you know, some of the moms in my community are saying, Yeah, pandemic, shmandemic, whatever. I don't know I got a kid who's out smoking, you know, Percocet or using fentanyl. I don't have time to deal with COVID-19 because I've gotta save my kid.

Jenney Wilder  09:44

Right, because COVID-19 not gonna kill my kid, it's, uh, you know, it's gonna be whatever substance they grab at that moment. Yeah. Yeah. And combined with like the major mental health stuff going on in America. It's it's not a pretty time but the good news is, is that when kids do make the choice to get into treatment young adults or whatever they are staying in treatment because many kids don't want to come home to do after care at home. Right? It's a little easier when everyone's stuck in the home.

Brenda  10:18

Well, boy, we just jumped in because there's so much to talk about. But I do like to just start out with just a fun question for you let people get to know you a little bit more personally, and that is what did you have for breakfast this morning?

Jenney Wilder  10:35

Oh, boy, this is a bad breakfast morning. I had two cups of coffee and five chocolate covered espresso beans. I kind of jumped right into the day. There was no food consumed.

Brenda  10:52

You are caffeinated! 

Jenney Wilder  10:57

That was my poor choice for the day. 

Brenda  11:00

Is that typical? I take it that's not typical. 

Jenney Wilder  11:03

No, it's not typical. My daughter is visiting her dad right now.

Brenda  11:10

And so you're having alone, adult time

Jenney Wilder  11:18

Food is not the thing that runs my day like when I'm around with my almost seven year olds and worried about low blood sugar screaming tirades in my face. So right, yeah, I just get to like, caffeinated. Yeah, that was it was really bad. That was kind of embarrassing. But there it is.

Brenda  11:39

That's the reality. You know, what I love to about this time is that the veneer I think has come off of everything, right? So we're seeing celebrities and newscasters working in their bedrooms in their basements and it feels like the world's just a reality show at this point. And so I kind of love just really letting people get to know us as human beings, I mean I'm sitting in my my walk in closet because my husband's obviously here working from home and he's really loud. So he's like two doors away shouting on his phone. And so it's just crazy. It's crazy times.

Jenney Wilder  12:16

such a good visual, that you're in your closet, so thank you 

Brenda Zane  12:17

I know for sure. so crazy. Well, maybe you can just give us some background on you and and sort of how you became interested in both educational consulting which I know you used to do and then now the transition that you've made into really being the go to resource for parents with all kinds of therapy.

Jenney Wilder  12:38

Yeah, you know, it's a I'm gonna give you like the full Jenny Wilder scope and, and under three minutes out for like, basically, I was the kid in school who couldn't read in the fifth grade and no one knew and you take that test in fifth grade, and oh, lo and behold, tons of learning disabilities were built and fast forward many years. I made it through high flying private school in DC, went to college and then promptly moved out to California and worked in Silicon Valley 1.0. And out there, you know, got to work with some of the most amazing people on this country by accident, right because I moved to California to hike, big ski and sail because I was a history major. I didn't know what electrical engineering was. Quality of life was my goal. And, you know, learned what electrical engineering was I ended up working for three startup companies that are we're all still in business and and my brother died of suicide when I was 27. And kind of took a year to stay where I was because I was at the startup company that every Stanford MBA wanted to work out and stay there invested some stock traveled, but laid myself off for my career because really, I've always wanted to work with kids, but I didn't know in what capacity. 

Jenney Wilder  14:04

I traveled in Southeast Asia ended up moving right after 911. Right. As 911 was happening, I moved back to the DC area. And boomerangs back was thinking about graduate school, which for the little girl who couldn't read in the fifth grade, that was a huge undertaking, and wanted to shoot here and work and work with kids. So I was the, you know, last 27 year olds like showing up at my, what does a producer do, you know, showed up at my friend's office, tell me what a producer does. Yeah, this is a little too detail oriented for my ADHD brain. Yeah, I was volunteering in classrooms and and went on to get a master's in special ed at in New York City at a teaching school. And before I ended up doing that, you know, took another job in technology because it was low hanging fruit and a way to make money but wasn't my passion and ended up working at a consulting practice in Washington DC, where the gentleman who was buying the business from the woman who founded it was my soccer coach in high school. And so really, you know, I firmly believe, with young people and families and kids, you know, it's the relationships that kind of get you through. 

Jenney Wilder  15:20

And so I ended up working in the office, I was a little overqualified for that and I was having a blast and the woman who founded the group, school counseling group and DCF. Now Hopper, my dear mentor, her son and I went to high school together. So you know, disease, just like any any city, you know, it's a small town when you actually grow up in it, and went to New York City, got a master's in special ed was thinking of, you know, planning on teaching and and one of the New York City public schools and then Peter Sturdivant, who had bought the business at that point from Athens said, Hey, do you want to come back? If new is going to retire, you can learn the business from her. So I kind of got handed this amazing opportunity. And I realized from teaching that I couldn't affect change in a family, or with a kiddo is, especially in a public school setting as quickly as I could as a consultant, because when they come to consultants office, there's a question, whether it's the academic, whether it's emotional, whether it's all the pieces, or they don't know what it is that you get to, there's a question that needs to be answered. And so that's, you know, I ended up moving back to DC and getting trained by one of the original education consultants and, and working with my son. Cool. It was, it was out of the Upper School, so you know, like growing up and so, you know, I yeah, I never thought I'd be living in Washington DC and then all of a sudden I was back there, you know, I thought I was going to be new york city girl for a while, and and so was there until 2000 And had a little experiment and marriage moved to Utah and had a daughter out there. And well, I was living out there until just a year ago, left in 2019. But

Jenney Wilder  17:17

my i right after my daughter was born, I was holding her in one hand and my cell phone and the other. I was at that point, solo practitioner on my own not working in a consulting practice. And one of my clients hurt themselves pretty badly. And I'm holding a six week old and the other hands and I was like, This is it, I'm done. I can't consult anymore. I want to focus. Make the emergency on my little person. I was only going to have one kid and so I always had the idea for all kinds of therapy. I wanted. I always wanted a resource. It was silly to me that you could buy a car and compare a Toyota Subaru and a Honda but you couldn't Compare treatment programs. Or you compare cell phones or whatever. And so I always, you know, because of my experience out in California and kind of growing up, I always feel like I got my, you know, college is great. I really learned about work in California. You know, my brain was developed on the web. And so why why wasn't there a website where you can compare treatment programs side by side. So I was like, I'm gonna do this now and get out of the emergency business with families.

Brenda  18:33

That's amazing. Yeah, I think the and I've talked about this before with other people the the scary experience of your first Google search when you're a parent and the situation is just, it's so overwhelming, and it's so terrifying. And the problem is, as you know, you're in a state of panic and crisis. And you're doing it so you're not even thinking straight. So to do that, you know, you type in, you know, teenage son, Percocet, help, whatever, and you get back 5 million results. It's like, umm, now what?

Jenney Wilder  19:18

I know, I know, now what, and Google, you know, there's a there's so many. Google has did a good job for a while there and really shut down the right story treatment programs. And, you know, that's one thing on my website that I'm so obnoxiously transparent about it I think, you know, most of these online directories are owned by treatment programs owned by consultants who are getting referrals from I mean, these poor parents who contact me and want to hire me, I mean it. You know, I'm like, Wonder Woman like deflecting the question. I'm like, here's some, here's some blogs. I'm never going to talk to you. On the phone, right? You know, here's what you need, the amount of text that I send to people, they must think I'm literally insane. But I, you know, I don't even want to engage in a conversation because I know that every parent wants just the name of a program to hang their hat on and run with and I, that is not my expertise anymore. I really spend the bulk of my day figuring out what questions parents are asking so that I can generate content and tweak the website so that it's geared towards those answers. So most of my visits to the website are coming through organic Google, I don't really pay for advertising at all. Sometimes I'll do Facebook. But that's my goal is to kind of be in that ocean of parents and get the get the treatment programs to write content that reflects what parents are asking because I think When you're when you're in this field and working, we're so focused on what we're how we're marketing ourselves or what kind of client we see. And and I'm like, No, no, stop thinking that way. What is a parent's? Right? Yeah. And that's that that's every piece of my website is geared towards that.

Brenda  21:21

So what are parents asking? Like? What are the things that that there were how they're finding you? It has that changed over time?

Jenney Wilder  21:30

You know, it's a good question. Um, I think my understanding has changed over time. And, you know, primary substance abuse programs I've always been very afraid of, because of what you were talking about the Google search. You know, so what I do is, be I'm pretty intentional, or I attempt to get really focused programs that I know are somewhat quality although I can't say every program on my on my website is the perfect program because there is no perfect anything.

Brenda  22:05

That doesn't exist.

Jenney Wilder  22:07

Yeah, that doesn't exist. And, you know, parents, you know, the interesting thing about this is the parents don't know what they're looking for. Right? I imagine your own experience reflected that to what you knew on day one of your 2am Google Search versus 48 hours after whatever problem happened. Or, you know, even when you're thinking about a custody situation or parent, I mean, that, you know, is it that my kids ditching school or my kid won't get out of bed for school or, you know, is it is it and so I'm, you know, the things that have changed is kind of wilderness therapy people are and people searching for insurance based programs. So I now have that as a filter on the left hand side. So programs that offered any sort of insurance reimbursement if they answer that question, each per each advertising program that answers that's listed on the website has to answer about 30 different programs, I'm sorry, questions. And that's a little bit different than if you're going to Psychology Today. 

Jenney Wilder  23:22

And, and the reason I did that had nothing to do with me trying to differentiate myself. It had everything to do with the fact that I wanted to reveal the breadth and depth of what programs were doing, and beg more questions and answered for parents because of exactly what you're talking about. You don't know anything when you're when you're starting this and so I wanted families to see like up front, is this program licensed by the state? Do they have a national accreditation? Do they take insurance? Do they have licensed therapists, I mean, there are so many shady treatment programs out there who say that they have therapists but they're not licensed? Or do you do your group therapy sessions? Are they run by clinicians? You know, that's a huge differentiator when you're talking about wilderness therapy, they always get lumped into boot camps. Well, they're totally different in terms of their model. But when you start to look at the history of wilderness therapy, everyone gets clumped together. And it's like, wilderness therapy programs are something totally different. And here's why they're different, you know, these treatment programs 20 years ago, whether it's residential or wilderness, you know, they didn't have treatment plans, you know, from your own experience your kiddo how to treatment plan. So that's, you know, even a program that has a treatment plan versus a program that doesn't have a treatment plan is totally different. And so that's, I guess, my in my fit of like, interest in DNA mystifying what was going on I went, I created this website with so many facts that people come in next day when they find it. However, that happens. And I'd love to tell you, I fully understand that. But I understand that they come and they stay for over two minutes. And that's been the case, which two minutes and web time as you know, oh, my god, you're on the website forever. Yeah,

Brenda  25:29

Well, and they probably come back because like you said, something happens. You're in a state of crisis. Do you do all these searches, you find something, and then you might be gone for six months, because whatever is going on, and then another crisis happens. And so it's probably you probably see some repeat visits from parents. 

Jenney Wilder  25:48

I definitely see repeats visits, and it's, but not as many as I would expect. I think what people do is they come and they do the research. I might sign up for my mailing list. Then I get several unsubscribes a month from my mailing list. But really, it's i think that that families found whatever treatment program and they were looking for, and they don't need it anymore.

Brenda Zane  26:10

And so maybe that's a good thing, actually. Yeah,

Jenney Wilder  26:13

no, totally. Yeah. No, I just think it's like this fascinating thing that I thought I was creating one thing and, no, you're not, you're doing this.

Brenda  26:25

I love that you require the programs to answer those questions, because parents don't you don't know what you don't know. So you don't know what to ask and what are some of those, like maybe three or four really important questions that parents probably don't know, they should be asking when they talk to either a consultant or if they're talking directly to, you know, a program.

Jenney Wilder  26:50

Oh, that's a good one. So I have a ton of blogs specific, pretty much. I have about 200 blogs at this point. I don't even know. I know. It's somewhere close. There. They're all designed for parents. So just for all the parents listening, and if you go to the blog section and you type in the word questions, you will get questions to ask a wilderness therapy program if you have an under 18 kids. Well, there's therapy programs given over 18 residential treatment for adolescents residential treatment questions to ask. So I like put it all out there and some of these things so I think like those questions, because when parents come to do searching, I like what we were talking about. You're in crisis and and what you think you can see at that moment, or what you I remember when I was working with families, and I would place over 50 kids a year and treatment and boarding schools, you name it, but right, and it's like, everyone's printed out every website and I'm like, yeah, I totally get that. 

Jenney Wilder  27:53

You're like trying to organize something that's totally chaotic. So if a parent comes to the website, sign up for a free listing, you can compare the program side by side. You can favorite programs, you know, all of those things that we can do on other websites, you can do it all kinds of therapy calm. And the questions. You know, I think what you think one day is totally different after you've talked to an admissions person at a different program. And it's because you're in crisis and you're struggling and your information, you know, maybe you think that your child's only smoking pot twice a week. Well, can I multiply that and what you find out when they have snuck out or what yes, social media reveals, or what the information is. 

Jenney Wilder  28:42

And so, you know, my goal with those questions is, you know, I think some of the most important things to ask is, is the treatment program licensed by the state, sometimes the states don't have a accreditation, especially, I mean, licensing especially in over 18 programs. So then I always ask and, the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs is going to be requiring this of all of their members that there is a national accreditation because because you know, the feedback when you look on when you look out on the web, which can be a very scary place, is these places are all about making money and yeah, their businesses for sure. And most of the treatment programs and I know their doors are open to more the merrier in terms of oversight. I mean, I have a blog, talking about specifically with treatment programs about why accreditation national accreditation, whether it's joint commission or COA or CAR is important to those programs and why they open the doors to people. So I think one thing I always want to tell parents is like there is no stupid question that you can be asking them admissions person because this is the hardest decision They were all over make as a parent. And you had to walk through that door and it's not an easy door. And so you can call them as many times as you want. And if you talk to one treatment program and you like their answer better, then called the other program back and be like, why don't you do it this way? Right? You know? Because, because that if a program isn't going to give you the answer that you want, then maybe it's not the right program for you. And that's okay. Right?

Brenda  30:31

Yeah, it's true. You're you sort of feel intimidated because you're in uncharted territory as a parent, you've never typically at least in your first go round you've never been like, I didn't even know this world existed, right? I was just living my life, just like every other mom and dad. And all of a sudden I'm I realized that, you know, okay, we need some serious help and didn't even know that there was such thing as an educational consultant, and I'd love to talk a little bit more about what that is. But I didn't know about wilderness therapy I didn't know about, I'd heard about these horrible boot camps. And I thought there's no way I'm gonna send my kid there. So you get really intimidated. It's kind of like heart calling, you know, a car dealership. You just feel like you're like, Oh, I don't know what to ask. 

Jenney Wilder  31:20

I'm totally been taken advantage of. Yeah, and that and that, honestly, is why every one of my blogs, for the most part, is geared towards parents. Because I just, I totally I remember those conversations as a consultant. And that's what you're doing. I was people would asked me when I became a consultant to people knew what a consultant was, in my life. My accountant in New York City, we had a consultant, right? Yeah, he was like, Oh, I know what you do. Wink wink, nudge, nudge. And then my friend you worked it per tangentially by one of my best friends. from college moved out west, and she worked in this field, so she was in wilderness and now and then but now works at NOL's, so something so she knows the difference between wilderness therapy and NOL's or wilderness therapy and Outward Bound, which is one of the most visited blogs on my website, because most people think wilderness therapy is Outward Bound or NOL's and it is not. Right. And so, yeah, I mean, this it and, and I always want to tell parents, like give yourself the space to just ask the questions. And if you don't like the answers, that's okay, too. And you're going to get more information as you as you get more information from the treatment programs or the professionals you're dealing with or the local therapist at home. I think the other thing is like some people, you know, go to treatment and do come home afterwards. And you know how that works. It's much more complicated than a child go Going on to another treatment center. And I know it's possible. And I also know that there are people who can come into your own home and start monkeying around and really working on the family system.

Brenda Zane  33:11

There's so many different options. I love that kind of your comparison model. Because a lot of times I know for us, we didn't really have very much time, you know, we and every family is different. Some families, like the kid actually knows that they're going to be going somewhere or more like mine where we can we had to use transporters and he didn't know he was going to be going but sometimes, you know, you've got like 48 hours to make this decision. And so just having kind of a black and white and taking the emotion out of it, and I think that's one of the hardest things for parents and why consultants are helpful is to separate out the emotion out of it of like, I could never do this. How could I make my kid go live in the woods or whatever it is?

Jenney Wilder  33:59

Yeah, so much discomfort,

Brenda  34:01

Oh, yeah, yeah, and consultants are not cheap. And I know that that is a big barrier because it's not covered by insurance. However, I think there's a trade off to have your your time and your emotional effort and your emotional state where they can bypass a lot of that research phase for you. Especially if you're in a situation where where your child is in danger like ours was and we really didn't have the luxury of time we didn't have a week even to figure out where where he should go. Is that really one of the biggest benefits that you see of consultants is being able to really be that guide and cut out some of that crazy?

Jenney Wilder  34:48

Yes, a good consultant is a surgeon, you know, how surgeons kind of take the you know, just slice you open and get it done. And they've been doing it so often that they can do it, they can do it without the emotion and they can walk you through and they can see the roadblocks that are happening. I always felt like I was a Sherpa as a consultant, like, okay, we're about to lose oxygen here and here's your oxygen mask, right? It's gonna be a really hard part like brief. here's here's a 10 we're gonna stay here at this, you know, for 10,000 you know, couple days get you acclimated and then we're going to climb this other one and a good consultant also, I mean, you know, my my dear mentor, athma I remember one time a kid, kid, okay, man, they the office at two o'clock and was on the way to treatment by four o'clock out of the office. You know, that not everyone's ready, willing and able to do that. And a consultant can do that not generally during COVID-19. But it is possible to have these things happen that quickly and and to be Be able to grab resources and that's the piece that consultant is really a concierge service for these families. I mean, you know, in tough economic times of 2008 I felt like a realtor, like this family has X amount of dollars like, you can do this or this, you know, how much are you willing to discount? Or can you handle this family only paying this if they pay all upfront? 

Jenney Wilder  36:25

And and the other part about what a consultant can do is really, because you are an individual parent, putting one kid in treatment, consultants can have 50 plus clients a year. So they know the words of every of all the programs because they see them all the time, not very COVID. But yeah, and they also place multiple kids in that program. And so, you know, if it's, if it's going to be wilderness therapy, Most consultants generally refer to a particular therapist to work well with a kid like yours. Sometimes they do that for residential afterwards. Sometimes they do that straight out of the gate. So that that nuance I always say, like, when I was starting the website, there were a bunch of consultants that were like you're taking away what you do. And I'm like, really? I don't think you I know what I was terrible at the facts about treatment programs, like, I don't remember staff to student ratios. Do you know that? You know, really, what a good consultant does is get you through the nuance of a placement and can help your family especially with complex family systems like they can work those much better at then, especially if there's a divorce situation and not people aren't on the same page. Like it's always good to have a third party.

Brenda  37:55

Absolutely. And yeah, I think the sherpa example is really perfect because you do need somebody who's been down that road before and can give you those warnings of, okay, this is gonna be really tough and you know, we're gonna, this is what's going to happen and they just have a more holistic view of what's going on, like you said, if you've been putting and helping, you know, 50 people a year navigate this world that you never even knew existed until maybe a few hours prior. It's just so helpful to have that. But I know everybody can't necessarily afford a consultant. So then you really, a resource like yours is just even more important to be able to drill down. You know, if my kid has anxiety, and you know, depression, and they're using marijuana, and they're autistic, you know, they're on the autism spectrum, or whatever, like, every kid is so unique and to be able to get to a point where you can start calling programs and really finding out what kind of match they might be.

Jenney Wilder  39:01

I mean, I think a lot of the blogs that I have are the questions and even the questions that I require treatment programs to answer, right. Not every treatment program wants to be that transparent. And so they're incredibly transparent the ones that are listed on the website to a degree that I think, you know, I can't prevent a program from advertising, but I do know that there are treatment programs that don't want to be advertisers. Right? Well, yeah. Self selecting group.

Brenda  39:35

Yeah, it's one thing if you get, you know, retargeted for a pair of shoes that you were looking at, you know, on a website, but when you start getting retargeted, by treatment programs, it's a little disheartening and maybe maybe I'm weird, because I know that because I was in advertising, but you know, if you visited a website, and then for the next two weeks, you're getting their one 800 number flashing in front of you. They are paying a red flag of fortune for that. Yeah, that's a huge red flag, not to say that they're bad. But if if they are doing retargeting, 

Jenney Wilder  40:05

it's a different philosophy, yeah. Right, definitely.

Jenney Wilder  40:12

yeah, I don't have any of that. I don't pay for that my margins aren't big enough. And I also know that like so many parents, right, you don't want to be on your work computer, doing whatever you do for a living and have like treatment program X advertising and you're right. The other thing that you know, blinking in your face, the other thing that the website has is like the treatment programs that are listed there isn't their biggest competitor, like also on their same page. Like I really try hard to keep things I have so much ADHD, like I need no visual clutter. I created enough visual clutter in my own mind that when I visited a website, I don't need to create more and so it's, you know, there's such an intentional kind of designed Try and keep things simple in a very, very complex situation.

Brenda  41:05

Yeah. Because you you know your audience and you know that they're already on overwhelm. They're in a state of crisis and they're probably looking at it at three o'clock in the morning. So yeah, I think that's that's very appreicated.

Jenney Wilder  41:17

I do have a fair amount of visitors in the middle of the night.

Brenda  41:19

Sure you do. I'm sure you do. And yeah, I'll never forget. A night Saturday, Saturday. Yeah. Yeah, that's when all hell breaks loose in houses with kids like this. I'll never forget. I was listening to music. One day at work. We had a big open workspace. And so we all had headphones and I was listening to Pandora and I started getting ads for, you know, drug and alcohol treatment in Pandora and I thought, Oh, my gosh, this just crossed a line. You know, right. Yeah. Because I was doing so much searching. So what are some of the things that you think consultants and programs really, most want parents to know that, you know, what are what do you said sort of hearing consistently from them that they really want parents to know about this field of, of treatment? Because it does, it can get a bad rap sometimes. And you know, it's totally scary as a parent to be handing your kid over to strangers. But what what do you take away from that? What do you think they want parents to know?

Jenney Wilder  42:24

Well, I think there's like this piece going on from COVID that I saw happening. And so I want to talk about that is that the kiddos who were in treatment during the pandemic, they have not their lives have not been as affected as those who didn't go to treatment, because they had a peer group. They had consistent education, their life actually moved on. Well, and I think I said to someone at one point, there's the study that needs to happen the kids who are during the pandemic versus the free range chicken that I was living with here. Yeah. You know, and the kids who weren't able to socialize, who were socially isolated, you know, within adolescence, there's a certain amount of social isolation happening naturally. But then did it did it get so much worse? So I think there's, there's kind of, it's hard to think about sending your kiddo to treatment in the middle of a pandemic. And I think not even programs and consultants, I think, from where I sit, because I have this beautiful vantage point of like 40,000 feet in the air is treatment was actually a really great place to when the world was shut down this spring, and might be happening again, who knows, is that these kids were doing incredibly well because they were in a level of structure that no parent can recreate while working while having other children while making three meals a day while cleaning the house, you know, all of the things that went along with with the shutdown, and so I think that that that piece You know, people want, I think it's so common for parents to just, okay, well, we'll just get through this next holiday or this next milestone. Okay. It's summer with the COVID. You know. So that's, that's the piece that I think is the most important thing to kind of put out there. It's like treatment was actually a really safe, consistent place where education continued to happen. Which is totally different than than what was happening for the rest of us. 

Jenney Wilder  44:31

In terms of the things that I think families need to know is, yes, the history of this, this industry is not pretty, I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I think that there are some good hearted people I've heard plenty of podcasts. I've read plenty of posts of former clients and there. There are some pretty unhappy former students and they seem to have every right to be And I think the where the industry was versus where it is today is vastly different. And I think, first and foremost treatment plans, starting to have outcome based, you know, looking at the outcomes because that we were forced into that and continuing down that path and kind of showing the world like, this is what's happening. And I think some of the research is, but it's it's beginning research. So I feel like they're, you know, children 20 plus years ago, and now we're kind of moving into adolescence, and we don't always want to talk about the history and I think where we are today is aware of the mistakes and and it's gotten cleaner, I think, not just the treatment plans, not just requiring national accreditation, but opening the doors to more and more people and that level of transparency. It was really not there, even 10 years plus ago. I think the there are professionals who get kickbacks a good education or therapeutic consultant does not. And it's okay to ask. And I think that the other thing that families need to know is if you, you can ask a good treatment program or a good therapeutic consultant. Any question and you should get the answer that you feel comfortable with because so much of this process...and, Brenda, I'd love to hear your feedback on this. It's like your trust in that program and that professional and if you don't trust them, the process is so much harder.

Brenda  46:47

Oh, for sure. Yeah, it's really, of all businesses, I can't think of one that relies more on referrals and trust because I know, like I said, I had no clue that there was anything called educational consultant. I didn't have older kids, so I never even been through it with college or anything like that. And so I had a close, you know, business associate that told me and I trusted him, you know, a huge amount of respect and trust for him. And so therefore, that transferred to the consultant that he put me in touch with who you know, over delivered on every question that we had every ask that we had and really worked with us because we were a difficult case where you know, me and an ex spouse, a child and you know, at risk, very high risk, very volatile the whole nine yards. And so as she built trust with us, then I felt better about you know, her recommending places and but it's still it is scary, because it's like, okay, here's two places to talk to, you got to pick one and I'll never forget, I was actually sitting on the floor of the Phoenix airport. Next, the little play area where kids were playing, she said you have 20 minutes with each one of these. And then you got to make a decision if we're going to get him there on Monday, and this was on Friday. And so you're just like, oh my gosh, you have to find somebody that you really trust, I had to know she had, she had narrowed down that Google search of 5 million to two. And that we were going to pick one of those two within the next hour. And then she was, you know, then after that, we had to pick the transport.

Jenney Wilder  48:31

Transport Company. Yeah.

Brenda  48:32

So it is just absolutely mandatory that you trust that person. And then you know, we we did, we asked, well, where we go out for a parent weekend and you talk Can we go visit the schools that you're the residential programs that you're recommending should absolutely go see him? And you know, I remember talking to some of the kids when we were out there and they're like, Yeah, no, we've never had anybody come before. We've never seen parents come through here before. So it does Doesn't matter if you want something that isn't necessarily the norm, you know, you you do you have every right. 

Jenney Wilder  49:07

And by the way, those kids weren't remembering 

Brenda  49:10

Probably not, or they'd only been there for a few days. Yeah, they're like, Yeah, no, I don't know. But, but I think you do have to be assertive. And you're not in a place in life where you are used where you're feeling able to be assertive, or even, you know, have the energy, the physical energy to be assertive or to be an advocate, but you just have to, and that's where having a good consultant can work and also having a community and that's why I started The Stream is because I had great family, but they'd never been through it. And so to have a community where you can say, well, we did this today, you know, we picked the transport company today and to just have a group of people kind of give you a virtual hug and say, okay, that's great. Like, you know, you're moving on is so important. 

Jenney Wilder  50:00

It is so important and and I truly I'm like super psyched about your podcasts. And there's another parent podcast geared towards parents podcast. And I think the parents, you know, I've seen enough schools created by parents who want to change the world or didn't see the the school availability for their kids that was just right. So they just created one. I love that energy. And this is kind of along those lines, like you didn't have this community in this way. So you've created the community. And that's, that's the best part of this business, honestly, in this industry is that it is there is kind of this wild west like Oh, if you see it, you can grow it. You want to do that great. You know, you want to be a consultant on your own great, hang up your shingle. And what that also means is that it falls back on a parent to or who's ever hiring, just ask the question over and over and, and that that's the piece that I just want all of your listeners to hear. It's like, I don't think that there's such a thing as a silly question because like in terms of online reviews, like online reviews are the bane of every treatment program exists, because they're only as good as yesterday or, or they or the five minutes before that. Right? And, and so if a parent reads a bad review, I tell every family and I even have a blog about this. It's like call the program and ask them about it because treatment programs change ownerships. Professionals have moved from treatment program to treatment program. And so what they did maybe at one program might not be what you're seeing online, reviewed over here. And there. 

Jenney Wilder  51:56

I'm actually kind of impressed with some of these former clients who are very well organized against these treatment programs and like more power to them, they're creating a big mess. And for whatever reason, they really that's where they want to spend their energy. Right. And that begs the question, Why do you have so many organized former clients raging against you on Google or Yelp or whatever, whatever website that they're posting reviews on, but I think I think when you were asking like what should parents now it is a total uphill, uphill battle in terms of programs actively trying to communicate like you can't they can't communicate, they can't write feedback to Google about a particular client or situation because violates HIPAA, so right, have a conversation with the program. Right, and it's, that one's the big one. And that's the one that programs honestly most of these programs are solo owned and operated. They don't Google themselves. I know that because I talked to them about what? No, yes. Well, and now like Yelp, you can write reviews for treatment programs on Yelp, you know, yellow, when it was started was about food. But now Google's taken that over. So now they've moved into these other areas. And you can't, you can't say something you can't get it down. And I mean, it's, you know, when I go to Yelp, I don't want to know how to wilderness therapy. Right? What are your view of wilderness therapy, but, you know, Yelp lost market share, so they're expanding into treatment programs. And you can safely assume most of these treatment programs don't know that there's a Yelp review about them.

Brenda  53:53

Right, right.

Jenney Wilder  53:54

Especially if it's a negative one.

Brenda  53:56

It's really, as a parent can be so overwhelming. I think I will also say just you know, know that there is no perfect treatment program. There really isn't. There's phenomenal treatment programs, but there aren't perfect ones. And so, you know, people will say, you know, my son actually ran away from the residential treatment program that he was in. And yet he ended up doing well, you know, in the end, he went through some ups and downs. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a good treatment program. He actually ended up going going back for a second round on his own, that's where he wanted to go. So I think it's also important just to know there isn't going to be something perfect. And in the absence of finding perfect it's better to find something that's going to work at that time. And that you that you feel good about and trust and take some imperfect action instead of waiting, you know, for summer or waiting until after maybe he'll graduate or maybe she'll get that job and then that will change everything and you know, you can rationalize yourself to death. But if you know kind of in your gut that this is something that you need to do, then, you know, getting your resources. Don't go to Google. It'll just freak you out and...

Jenney Wilder  55:15

or Google with care, rght? Like, if you if you're not seeing when you're on a treatment directory, who the owner is, and how they make their money run, don't hide, right. If it's not easy to find, then walk away. And that goes to the treatment program to like, who are the owner, right. Do they own five treatment programs today or one treatment program today? You know, do they take kickbacks from you? I mean, you know, you name it, it gets messy quickly. 

Brenda  55:48

And I love that you said it's okay to ask those questions. Because you do wonder and sometimes you feel like ooh, should I ask that question? And I guess I would just say when it comes to your child's life, is there any question that's it inappropriate to ask. I don't think so. Right. I don't think there is. And I think that if they're a good professional program, they would welcome that question and they would understand the the state of mind that you're in and and understand why you would be asking that. So yeah, so ask away.

Jenney Wilder  56:18

And I think you bring up a really good point, Brenda, it's not a clear path. I do have a blog, it's about the ugly middle when things get really ugly, like it'll be calm for a while and things will start going and then things start getting really uncomfortable. And then and then you kind of come out a little bit more. And it's mental health, it's substance. It's substance abuse, treatment and recovery. Like it's not a straight line. Much like growing up, not a straight line. And you throw all this in and I think just recognizing I firmly believe kiddos who have are old and have these positive experiences no matter what, even if they end up running away or whatever, and one of my dear friends 18 year old daughter is, you know, relocated herself. But had a couple of years of just her brain being calm. And so she still calls her mom and you know, her mom's still struggling through and that friend of mine wrote a bunch of blogs about her own experience parenting through these decisions and wrote about wanting to do a quote unquote parent do over I mean, it just kind of raw real stuff and it gets ugly before it gets pretty.

Brenda  57:48

And you need to hear that as a parent because the I think the way you're new to this world, when you're just first entering this world, is you think, okay, they're going to go to this thing. We're going to spend an inordinate amount amount of money on it, and then they're going to be better. And what you don't hear often enough is that might happen. Also, what might happen is that they're going to go, they're going to learn some stuff, and then it's going to be fine, and it's gonna be ugly, and then it's gonna be okay. And it's gonna be ugly. And then, you know, it's that twisty windy road. But I don't think you hear that enough. Because obviously programs don't want to say that. And I wouldn't either if I was a program, but I think there needs to be people like me, you who are willing to say this, they're not necessarily just going to come back and be fixed. I think that's probably more you would know better than I do. But I think that's probably more rare than common, but they've learned a lot and they've had that time with their mind. Well, whether it's away from substances or less anxiety or less depression, or whatever it is, and that builds over time, and they'll be able to tap into that. But I think there's a little bit of a myth of you know, this 30 day program is gonna just get them going.

Jenney Wilder  59:00

You know, if it could only, you know, I heard at a conference, the 30 day model came from the military, but you could be away from the military for 30 days. So 28 days with a day of travel on either side, and that's where the 30 day model came from. Wow. Which, you know, my mind blew wide open when that was said, and and especially for adults, right, like adults who have like, fully formed brains. A bit different with, um, with adolescence, you know, and young people we know, like in terms of the brain, what we know now in terms of brain development, even versus 10 years ago, is so vastly different. What we know about drugs, and how the drugs have changed. And you know, what we need is now versus what it was when I was a kid. And, you know, these are the things these are actually the things that keep me up at night. It's like, how do we know? How is this not? You know, I'm always amazed with my own friends like that they're unaware of some of these things. How did you not know that?

Brenda  60:09

Right? I know. Yeah.

Jenney Wilder  60:12

Yeah. And so I think you know that that beginning, middle and end and what that end is and how that ends can be incredibly different. I think the thing that fills me with hope all the time is that these young people, I, I and I felt this as a consultant, too. It's like I can see, no matter how long down the road, I can see that positive things are coming to that family and I think the young people in recovery who there's so many more people who young people who are getting sober younger, and that's cool. Even you know, I'm in my mid 40s. Like that was not cool when I was in school and sober dorm was like a place that you just didn't use substances versus a recovery dorm. And these recovery, you know, the recovery programs at colleges, that blows my mind, you know that there are 131 different recovery programs on college campuses. And that was last year. So it's probably more than that. And that these young people, I mean, and they're just living cool lifestyles, and it's so much more interesting than, like, doing keg stands in the closet.

Brenda  61:28

Right, right. Yeah, no, that's so true. And that's and that's an area that I think a lot of parents don't know even exists either is over high schools and these recovery programs on college campuses that because that's a terrifying thing, right, your kid 19 or so comes home from some sort of treatment program. And they want to go to college, the number one place where kids learn to party that doesn't compute so so knowing about those,

Jenney Wilder  61:56

some of the biggest some of the biggest quote unquote party schools In the trade now have these thriving recovery programs. University of Colorado Boulder is one of them. You know, the place that was voted the number one party school, but you know, I remember that from high school was like, oh, they're going there. Now they have a flourishing recovery program and Texas Tech kind of started that whole movement. And you know that the thought process when I started consulting, when in 2005, was like, Oh, you just send the kids through the young person to a small college? Well, there isn't always that thriving recovery community at a small liberal arts college, right. But there are the relationships. Well, can you can you now these recovery, colleges collegiate recovery programs, like blew my mind in terms of the network and the relationships that they have, and the community that they have and how that works? And each one of those is so vastly different? And so what I would say to parents is if you have a consultant and you have a kiddo who's in recovery, make sure that that person that consultant knows about collegiate recovery programs, because not every consultant knows about that, because it's a separate little concentric circle in this world, right? 

Jenney Wilder  63:14

Or the recovery high schools that are that are local. Those blow my mind to I went to one of their conferences, and that's kind of blown away by it, because they're their charter schools. So they're quote unquote, public schools, with recovery programs, and they're usually partnering with the local collegiate recovery program to so that there's this cross pollination of like, Look, you can be a cool young person in college in recovery, too. I mean, hello, this isn't rocket science, but it's that collaboration that that I love. It definitely fills me with tons of hope, and how that works. 

Brenda  63:56

That's amazing. And that's it. I think. There is a lot have negative in in this field and there's just obviously a lot of negative in the world right now in general, but this, this kind of movement towards sobriety being a cool option and a really cool alternative for kids and, and all the amazing things that they get to do in that lifestyle is one of the best things I think for parents to know about too is that Yeah, your kids might be hurting right now. But there luckily is a community like a soft landing for them that if they can get there that they've just got so much help and you know, they've got a safety net around them, whereas you don't have to just send them off to, you know, a party school and bite your fingernails for the next four years. So that's exciting.

Jenney Wilder  64:51

Yeah, it is really exciting. And I'm and some of these collegiate recovery programs have mental health pieces to and you don't have to actually be in recovery from substances, you know, you can just identify that you are in recovery from whatever it is. And it just depends on the collegiate recovery program. And I love that it's like, yes, it doesn't, you don't have to be a certain type in order to be in this group. And so much of life is about the relationships that you form and who you are and how you're connected. And how do you stay connected, to stay healthy? Who are those people and, and the relationships are what are what the young people talk about. I mean, I'm guessing your your son talked about the staff and the wilderness and the connections in the staff at the program because they're around sometimes more than the therapists are. And that's the piece that I always loved when I was meeting with kids at treatment programs that they would talk about, oh, everyone knows me here, right. We can live in such an invisible world. And so that's, you know, when you move out when you transition from a treatment program into quote unquote, real life, what many of these young people talk about is like, how are we going to replicate that? How do we teach you how to connect? Yeah. In a safe place and give you options, you know, to be successful? Yeah.

Brenda Zane  66:23

Wow. So much. I feel like we could probably have four more episodes. But before we wrap up, I would love to know, what's the favorite part about what's your favorite part about what you do?

Jenney Wilder  66:36

I never get to do the same thing twice. The ADHD, full disclosure,

Brenda  66:43

right?

Jenney Wilder  66:44

I get to kind of look at things in many different ways on any different day. And so my own disorganization feeds what I get to do every day. So it's a gift. 

Brenda  67:00

I love that. Thanks for, oh my gosh, Jenny, thank you so much for this. I may be calling you back to do part two, because I think there's a lot we can do about that. But this has been amazing. And so the website is all kinds of therapy.com and anywhere else that people you want people to find you or connect with you or is that the best place?

Jenney Wilder  67:19

I think that's a place to go. And there's a free resources section and in the free resources section has a list of low cost therapists around the country. There's also the experts section that has a bunch of consultants as well as mental health people and parent coaches who work virtually and or in person. So that's another resource. There's transport companies, so it's all kind of they're great. 

Brenda  67:47

And you have a newsletter. Awesome. Yeah. It's so helpful. So thank you so so much. I look forward to talking again, and I know that parents are going to just get a huge amount out of this. I can't wait to stay in touch.

Jenney Wilder  68:05

Thank you so much, Brenda, have a great day.

Brenda  68:09

There you go, how much knowledge does Jenny hold in one body and just think this was one hour of conversation with her. So if you're a parent and you're looking, just pop on to www.allkindsoftherapy.com, you will find tons and tons of information. Her newsletter is great. It's just jam packed. It's not fancy, it's not frilly. It's just very down to earth what you need when you're in the situation. So I hope that was helpful. I wish I would have known about this six years ago when I was going through it. 

Brenda  68:39

So I hope that you have taken away some hope and some encouragement and knowing that you are not alone in this search. There's lots and lots of other parents going through it as well. And if you're a mom that is listening to this and wondering where your fellow tribe of mamas is, just go to my website BrendaZane.com, you will find information about The Stream, which is an online community, where we get together, we're all moms who have either been through this or are going through it in the moment, we would love to support you and give you a virtual hug. And it's a very quiet and private space not connected to Facebook or any other social media. And if you're just really in the search for information and wondering what you can do right now, I would encourage you to also go and download my free ebook. It's called HINDSIGHT, three things I wish I knew and my son was addicted to drugs. The title kind of says it all. So I won't expand on that but you can get that at BrendaZane.com/hindsight. It's free and it's short, but it'll give you some information that might be helpful right now. So thanks for listening, please do leave a review and a rating if you have just a couple of minutes that helps more families find hope stream and I look forward to having you back here again next week for a new episode. Thanks for listening. 

Brenda 

And if you're a mom who is struggling right now who needs some support, please go to check out The Stream, which is our online community where moms get together and we just hold each other up and give each other virtual hugs. It's online at www.thestreamcommunity.com, and it's not associated with Facebook or any other social media. So it's a very quiet, confidential place to come and get supported by other moms. And if you are in the mood to do a little reading, you can download my free ebook. It's called HINDSIGHT: Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted to Drugs, and that title is pretty self explanatory. So I will just let you download that and get the information that you might need to help you during this difficult time. It's at www.BrendaZane.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I will meet you back here next week.