The Golden Nuggets of 2023
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
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About this episode:
I release about 50 episodes of Hopestream every year, and every year there are a few conversations that just stick. Months later I’ll find myself reflecting on how a specific story or perspective has the potential to change the way we think and act as parents of kids working toward recovery. I think of these important moments as this year’s “golden nuggets.” Enjoy!
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Brenda: [00:00:00] You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and fellow mom to a child who struggled.
This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So, after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. We did it, my friend. We made it to the final week of 2023.
And despite all that may have happened this year, guess what? You made it through 100 percent of it. I always love this episode because it's where I get to hop in a time machine. And go back and remember all the conversations I've had [00:01:00] over the year. I get to pull out some special bits and pieces that really resonated with me from very special people.
And believe it or not, this is the first year I've actually had help from an editor doing this. And it's quite the undertaking to go back through 50 plus episodes, pull out the important nuggets and share them with you in a way that feels consumable. So, it's been nice to have an extra set of hands and ears on this one.
So shout out to Kendall, the editor who makes this show sound amazing. And in the show notes, you will be able to find links to each of the full episodes that you're going to hear snippets from today, along with, of course, all the resources that we shared for those shows. And you can get all of those at brandazane.com/podcast.
As I was preparing for the show, I actually got an email from my podcast hosting service, and [00:02:00] they decided to do a little recap of 2023 for me. And you know, I love statistics and all that stuff. So let me just share a little bit about where the podcast is as we enter our fifth season, which by the way, blows my mind.
The number one most popular city for downloads is New York, followed by Seattle, Brooklyn, which Wow. Shout out to all my friends in New York city. That's amazing. And then Atlanta and Toronto were also quite the global crew. We reached 83 countries and 872 cities outside the U S we have a lot of listeners in Canada.
In the UK, Australia, and Germany. So a huge hug and shout out to you if you are listening from outside the U.
Emily Kline: S. If we come at people who are a little bit motivated
Brenda: with a lot of like lecturing and scoping, um, then they
Emily Kline: just get defensive and they're not even willing to talk with us. And it's like, [00:03:00] ah, that person
Brenda: actually was like, they were curious, they were interested.
Just know with these numbers that you are not alone. This is an issue people all have. all around the world are grappling with. So if you're ever sitting there thinking about how alone you feel in the muck, just pop your earbuds in, fire up an episode, and know that there are likely a few thousand other people listening and doing the exact same thing at the same time.
Before I jump into the special segments we're going to cover, I just want to tell you something that I don't think I've said in a while, and that is you are the most incredible person ever. And if you ever feel ashamed or embarrassed by what is happening with your child or children, Or about things that have happened in the past, please stop.
You deal with things that other parents have no clue about. You do so much [00:04:00] for so many people, very little sleep, by the way, and under a huge amount of pressure. So if anyone should hold their head high and be proud of themselves for being a total badass parent is you. We have a saying in the stream, which is our private community for moms.
Which is strong back, soft front, capes on, let's go. And we say this because whether you are a mom or a dad, an uncle, a grandma, a sister, whoever, you wear a special invisible cape that allows you to leap tall buildings, untangle some incredible messes, battle with insurance companies, plead, beg, and borrow for resources that should come easily to you.
And usually, and I can verify this, you do it with class and respect and with a [00:05:00] smile on your face. It is astounding to me. It truly is. what you do. So with your head high, knowing that you are an elite level parent, let's get into the golden nuggets of 2023.
First up, you are going to hear from one of my favorite people. He has been on the pod twice now, and he has been a guest speaker in HopeStream community. And the reason why is because he gets our kids. Dr. Wes Robbins, founded and runs Eternal Strength Center for Radical Youth Work in Alpharetta, Georgia.
where they serve youth ages 10 to 25 and their families struggling with a wide range [00:06:00] of mental health challenges, including anxiety, depression, self harm, suicidality, substance misuse, and of course, addiction. They are a unique alternative to IOP, which is intensive outpatient, and PHP, partial hospitalization programs, for mental health.
They truly are. therapy, rehumanized. Wes is one of my favorite humans. Here he is on episode 161.
Wes Robins: The biggest epiphany for me was the standard developmental and traditional psychological and psychoanalytic models of understanding addiction didn't resonate. What resonated for me was these fringe theorists, Gregory Bateson and these French philosophers, Deleuze and Guattari, and how they mapped [00:07:00] and watched certain things.
So rather than defining addiction, by the time I got done writing this, addiction had a completely different meaning to me. And I no longer saw addiction as an inherently negative, but I saw it as this powerful energy that always flowed through me, but I didn't know how to wield it and I had no idea how to channel it.
Yeah. And so it, you know, when I hear the word addiction now, it doesn't ever feel shameful. It doesn't ever feel negative. And I could get all heady and academic and break down, you know, different types of addiction. But for me, it was. an embracing of a portion of me that was lost. And so one of the last things that I write is I was once addiction lost and now I am addiction found.
Wow. And I think, yeah, understanding that it was this powerful tool and this flow and flux of energy. So a lot of insights into myself and a lot [00:08:00] of letting go of shame.
Brenda: Do we underestimate our kids ability to grasp some of these things and find their own way of life? Absolutely. out of addiction. I, I just have to believe that we're almost doing a little bit of a disservice to our kids when we don't look into some things that might be a little bit more exploratory.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wes Robins: No, I mean, you're spot on and, and I have a lot of, um, empathy for the parents because I don't think there's a lot of alternative spaces of treatment that even exist. Overall, we underestimate young people's ability to comprehend really, really Complex. You know, when I talk about radical youth work, which is this methodology that we utilize inherently embedded in it is a flattening of hierarchy, the ability for an older individual or an adult to meet hand in hand and have a [00:09:00] mutual liberation, mutual respect for that young person and really being inquisitive about their inner self.
world and their lived experience and their thoughts. One of the best things that you can ever do for a young person is to see their light, especially when you see addiction tied so much to shame and insecurity and low self worth that if you can come in and you can see that light. in that young person and say, I see your beauty.
I see your strength. And actually, I don't think you're broken. I don't think you're diseased. I think you are lost and struggling, but I think you're strong and you have this ability to course correct. And that's where I think You know, I always view addiction like a sword, and it's this powerful, powerful energy and force.
Unwielded, you harm yourself and [00:10:00] you harm others. Wielded, some of the, the most, um, insanely successful, holistically healthy individuals I've ever met are addicts. And they've just, they've learned and they've channeled and they've grown. I mean, the center wouldn't exist. If I wasn't an addict, I'd be like, I'm done working.
Right. You know what I mean? But that like, that relentless fixation and obsession, which oftentimes only gets seen as a negative. As a beauty within it when, when each person can understand it. And so I think that's self depth and understanding of oneself. But the only way a young person gets there is if somebody gives a shit enough to actually be curious about who they are.
But young people are going into programs and programs are already telling them, I already know who you are. You're an addict. And you're using for these reasons. And, and you have this and here is the treatment and the thing that's going to help. And I [00:11:00] think young people are seeking something that's more individualized.
And when we stop and go, whoa, whoa, who are you? Yeah, okay. You got all these things going on that I could easily compartmentalize and conceptualize you, but what's your soul? What's going on for you? Now we move past a theoretical understanding of addiction that may be biochemical, psychological, sociocultural, developmental.
It's like, what about that person? What's going on for them and their internal narrative? That's, that's creating that, how addiction is manifesting for them
Brenda: uniquely. This next segment is near and dear to my heart because it is the voice of my son talking about some of his experiences as he reflects back on his darkest years.
During the conversation in episode 185, I had to keep pinching myself because in a million years, I could have never [00:12:00] imagined that we would be in a place. where we'd be talking about this stuff together in a healthy and constructive way. I actually could never even have imagined that he would be alive at the age of 26, given all that he went through.
If you're in the thick of the storm, Enzo Narciso, the young man whose lived experience instigated this podcast and all the work I do, should give you so much hope. Take a listen to this segment from episode 185.
Enzo Narcisso: I think it was 12 I started smoking weed, or at least smoked weed for the first time. And then it became more and more of a present thing in my life until probably, I mean, the alcohol use was there too, but I didn't venture too far out into the world.
other drugs until after I came home from wilderness or from, uh, you know, what adventure therapy, [00:13:00] but he got far more serious
Brenda: after that. You went through several different, so you went to wilderness therapy, went to residential treatment. There was a detox in there. There was a return to sober living. I don't even know what else, but what, what was that experience?
And what do you think you picked up along the way from, from being in different treatment programs?
Enzo Narcisso: The interesting thing is that when I was going through all of that, like the, it's hard to forget kind of some of the skills and some of the thought exercises and different ideas that you learn in the therapy world.
And so when it did become time to go and actually get my life together, I guess that's when everything kind of came back. And so, you know, I was able to think about like, Oh my gosh. This is hard if I'm going through it, like whatever, a little job or any kind of thing like this is hard wood. And then I remember back to the, to the wilderness, [00:14:00] like it ended though, like it, all that ends, you know?
And so there's, there's a bunch of different little things and different quotes that people tell you and different ideas. Um, and really it all came together when I decided that I was going to change my life and I was going to improve my life. And that's when all these tools that, that they were forcing down my throat, that's when I used all of them because I was like, man, I'm going to actually, actually want to get ahead.
Like, I want to start building a life for myself. And what I referenced to go back and do that is to go back to those, what I learned in the residential. treatment, what I learned in the wilderness, all the different processes that they teach you and the ideas and things. Those all came back once I was able to decide for myself that I wanted to use them.
Brenda: Yeah. And that's interesting because a lot of times people talk about, you know, well, did wilderness therapy work for your son or did residential treatment work? I think defining [00:15:00] the word work is really, really difficult because it's, you know, it's like the crockpot version of, of progress. It's very slow sometimes, you know, people always ask me, what was it that made your son change?
What was it? What was it? And I always say it wasn't just one thing. Um, it was a, it was a constellation of different things that came together, but definitely after your overdose in 2017, which. Was extreme, right? You had a heart attack, you had a stroke, you, your kidneys shut down, you were on life support for three days, like this was no joke.
This was a big deal. Yeah,
Enzo Narcisso: a month of
Brenda: recovery. Physical recovery, like learning how to walk, learning how to brush your teeth, learning how to swallow. I mean, maybe talk a little, just a little bit about what that was like.
Libby Stuyt: Well,
Enzo Narcisso: yeah, I mean, that was the experience that did change it, honestly. And yeah, it was just.
A really brutal wake up call [00:16:00] because I don't know how religious your, your, uh, listeners are. Maybe they're not or whatever it is, but I remember I was in a situation. I prayed to God to let me out. Please let me out of this situation. I'll stop just to get, get me out of this situation. I'll stop miraculously.
The next day I'm completely. The situation is gone and of course, a couple hours after the situation was relieved, I immediately went back to and broke my promise and then the overdose happened. I think he pretty much sent me back to being a baby again, like, you know, learn to walk, learn to talk, learn to read an analog clock on the wall.
Looking at that situation, I just don't think. I could have looked at that and said, all right, I'm going to still make it out. So that was really the turning point for when I said, okay, you know what, I have to figure
Brenda: something out. What do you think parents mostly don't [00:17:00] understand about all of
Enzo Narcisso: this? I don't think parents understand the value of like the relationship with their kid.
And it makes sense because it's your kid and they're doing something that's extremely concerning. So it's easy to put all of your focus on that concerning thing. And you want to solve that issue naturally as a parent, I'd imagine. Um, you know, most of the time when I talk to the boys that I work with, a lot of them say that my, my dad just doesn't talk to me, you know, or like if he talks to me, he's mad.
And so like remembering that, like, you got to talk to your kid and you got to be a parent to a child first, and then also engage in the problem that your child has kind of dipped his foot into without the relationship. What reason is there to even. Go back and improve your, your situation, you know, it's, it's, you've got to approach it.
Like, let me try and do something different, [00:18:00] you know, like, let me, let me tell the kid, Hey, listen, I know I've been a little bit rigid with you or whatever the situation may be. Acknowledge it, acknowledge it, you know, don't, don't just try and, because this is the thing they try and, Oh, okay. Yeah. I'd probably have been a little bit crazy.
Now I'm going to go and just. Invite my kid to dinner or whatever it is. Well, what do you think the kid is going to think when you go and invite him to dinner? Do you think he's going to rely on his information that he has from the past? About what's happened in the past or do you think he's gonna understand in his mind right away that oh, he's inviting me to dinner Maybe he wants to completely make a change in how he approaches our relationship.
So The second option is probably not what the kid's gonna think and he has no reason to think that so it's clear You have to be clear right off the bat that this is I'm I you know Listen, I've looked at how I've done things in the past want to just go bowling. Like I just want to do [00:19:00] that I don't want to talk about whatever happened You know, whatever I did in the past and everything, I don't want to, you know, just, I want to just do this, just both.
And then you have to stick to that. You can't, you can't go and try and slip something in or slip some information in or whatever, you know, you just, you have to stick to it if you're going to do it.
Brenda: Eleanor and Dave are parents who ended up in a place no one ever thinks they're going to find themselves.
Two highly educated and successful engineers working in Silicon Valley and watching their young daughter descend from college freshmen. To living in her car, addicted to fentanyl and refusing treatment, their story would be horribly tragic if it weren't for the calculated and strategic moves they made.
As they refused to let Fentanyl take their girl. They put together a combination of innate wisdom, craft skills, and the resources and support of Hope Stream community. To devise a plan that eventually brought their daughter back and their entire [00:20:00] family back together. It is literally a Netflix series waiting to be made.
I don't know how else to describe it. Here are Eleanor and Dave sharing some of their incredible story from episode 180. We
Eleanor: went and basically did a family intervention. My son came up. We went to her apartment and said, This is not okay. Look at this apartment, look at your, what you're doing, you know, do you agree?
And we had a very frank family conversation and my son said, you know, Megan, this isn't, this isn't good. And she agreed to come home to California. We rented a U Haul in Portland, packed up her apartment, most of it. We came home. She had a friend who was going to drive her and her car home and follow us.
That following did not happen. She stayed. Dave flew back up, [00:21:00] found her, drove her home. And that night, we woke up the next morning and she was gone. The car was gone, she was gone, and she called us halfway back up to Portland because she had no money and she had no gas. And she was on the side of Highway
Libby Stuyt: 5.
I'm thinking,
Dave: okay, we'll get her home and then we'll get her into rehab, you know, down in the Bay Area quickly. And if I had been smarter at that time, I would have made sure that she had enough drugs
Libby Stuyt: to carry her through the
Dave: next five days or something like that. Yeah. But again, I think I'm still in sort of denial about this whole thing.
If I could just get her, if I could just get in the car with her and get her home, that it'll all be okay. It's like, no, that,
Libby Stuyt: that, that's
Dave: not [00:22:00] right. You know, she needs, she needs those drugs. Her body is gonna do anything it can to get those drugs. She will get in a car and she will drive north to get those drugs.
Even knowing that she only has enough gas to get her halfway, and
Libby Stuyt: no money.
Eleanor: So I said, okay, here's, you know, 60 I'm putting in your account. That's for gas to get you back to Portland. Or get home. We hope you come home
Brenda: instead. You could point the car south.
Eleanor: Yeah, but, but you gotta get somewhere. So we gave her enough money to do that and said, Um, that's it, you're not getting anything else, uh, we will help you if you ask for help to get, you know, healthy and to get into recovery, but you're not getting any more money or
Brenda: anything else from us.
How, because I know she's not still living in her car with, [00:23:00] you know, the, the boyfriend and the fentanyl. How do you go from that to where you are today? Well, so
Eleanor: the stream honestly was. It was instrumental for me. I mean, it was huge, such huge value. You and Kathy and, and all, you know, all the moms and the senior people who'd been through it.
You know, I would, the resources you had, honestly, I scoured through all of that. We found a, an, an ed consultant. Mainly just for helping us, not that I wanted to put her in school or anything, but just to help us understand if, if we should try to get her into wilderness. Like what should, we were now at the point of like, okay, like we need to get help for her.
And And so, you know, I looked at interventionists, and I, we started to get that help, and, and, you know, as we're driving to Portland, which every month, like I said, [00:24:00] for four months, we would rent a two bedroom Airbnb, tell her we were coming, give her the address, and she always With her boyfriend would come and stay with us and And we would again feed them and make sure they were getting sleep and We would in the first two We talked about Rehab We even got her on the phone to one and she like was sort of self admitting But then every both of those two times she ran in the morning again, we would wake up they'd be gone Interestingly, though, we would often get notes that would say, we would get notes from her boyfriend that would say, I'm so sorry, I, I tried to get her to stay, cause, cause we believed he wanted to get help, but he, he didn't want to leave her on the street herself.
Yeah. So he was sticking with her. So, you know, [00:25:00] we would get these notes, but then we'd go back up and we'd do it again. And then, I finally, I found an interventionist. Who was from Oregon and we said, okay, here's what we have to do. We have to block the car so she can't just leave. And we, you know, and we got to get her back in.
And, and the interventionist said, um, are you going to be able to get her to stay with you? I'm like, ah, I can get her to stay. Like, I'm sure I can. So, and here's what we have to do though. We gotta, we gotta make sure that she can't run. And we woke her up. That Sunday morning or whatever. He woke her up. He woke her up.
But both of them, because he was staying with us as well. And, um, said, Megan, come on out here. And she said, you know, like she, she had no idea because she thought we had just let
Brenda: go of the
Eleanor: whole, you know, getting her to rehab. [00:26:00] And, and between all of us, We got her keys, she was blocked in, and we basically, again, the final and last boundary was here's the deal.
You go today, and you go with him, and here's where you're going. or you're on the street because we're not, you're not getting your car. You take what you can carry. Yeah, and that was it. And so between the interventionist, our letters to her, which we did as part of the intervention, and her boyfriend convincing her to go, she agreed to go.
And then we stayed behind to help her boyfriend.
Brenda: I remember that. I remember that because we were all in the stream. We were like, Yay, she went! And then, and then Eleanor was like, no wait, but we're still here. We got one more, one more kid to save.
Eleanor: He actually, I just found out he just had his one year anniversary as well.
So I was super [00:27:00] happy to hear that. As did Megan. June 4th was her first sober anniversary. So, like, we're just really happy that kind of, you know, they've met those
Brenda: big milestones. This next guest's episode, number 160, is always in the top five most downloaded shows of all episodes. And I believe it's because Dr.
Emily Klein has a way with words and a way of understanding what truly motivates people to change. I invited Emily onto the podcast when I read the title of her book, the school of hard talks, how to have real conversations with your almost grown kids. I mean, how could I not with a title like that? Dr.
Klein serves as the director of psychological services for the wellness and recovery after psychosis team. And leads the motivational interviewing for loved ones lab at Boston Medical Center. Her research focuses on early course psychosis, adolescent [00:28:00] and young adult mental health, and parent focused interventions.
She also serves families in her private practice. Take a listen to why episode number 160 is so, so popular.
Emily Kline: So the basic philosophy is that we simply cannot control other people. And that makes a lot of sense as a therapist, right? Because it doesn't really matter what you say in the room, the person's going to go out there and live their life.
If you don't want them to drink alcohol or use substances or you want them to take a medicine or, you know, exercise, it really has to come from their own motivation. There's very little that we can control. About other people, and the flip side of that is that people are most receptive to suggestions and advice and trying something new when they're feeling understood, confident, and in control.
We all want to control our own destiny, and people will be [00:29:00] really Can be very self destructive just to prove that they're in charge, right? And so we never want to talk to that part of someone's psyche, you know, we want to talk to the curious Optimistic mature like hmm. What could I do differently? Part of someone not the you know, screw you.
You don't know me Back off of my life part of someone and the idea is that we all have both sides We're all ambivalent when it comes to making changes in our lives So, we want to communicate with people in a way that helps them feel not judged, but understood, that helps them feel like, that kind of curious, like, hmm, what could I do?
And we, as much as possible, want to resist giving advice unless we're really sure that it's a good time to do it. So there's a couple of really simple ways to do this. You know, motivational interviewing isn't super easy and people do train a lot in it, but I like to just emphasize the really basic skills, which actually are.[00:30:00]
They're not easy, easy, but if you practice them, they get a lot easier. And so those skills are like starting a conversation, not with a whole lot of information or giving advice, but from a stance of curiosity. And sort of respect for the other person's autonomy. So, for instance, if I wanted to start a conversation about cannabis use with my teenager, I wouldn't walk into the room and say, Hey, here's an article about why this is terrible for you, and you better stop doing it or else I'm taking away the car keys.
Which is
Brenda: probably what 99. 9 percent of us do the first time.
Emily Kline: Yeah, and it's, it's very understandable. And if, A, by the way, if that worked for you, then, like, Do it again. Congratulations. No shade from me. Like, I'm just a practical person. If that works for you and your family, that's awesome. But instead, walking in and going, Hey, you know, I've noticed a smell of cannabis from your backpack or in the car [00:31:00] or whatever.
What's going on? And just trying to come at it from a non judgmental perspective and learn as much as we can before we direct or prescribe. So that's kind of the first Thing is not trying to control or fix, um, but instead really rooting ourselves in, in curiosity, in nonjudgment, and then using really good nonjudgmental questions and using a lot of reflections to try and get into a non defensive back and forth conversation.
So what that would sound like is, so you say, okay, I noticed that the car smells like weed. And your teenager says, No, it was my friend. It wasn't me. I wouldn't do it. And why are you even asking me? You know, has this defensive reaction. Of course,
Brenda: mom. It's
Emily Kline: never me. Yeah, it's not you. So I say, oh, okay. It wasn't you.
It was your friend. Whether I believe it or not, [00:32:00] right, I'm just gonna reflect what I hear back. And the point of it is just to get the other person talking and just to say, hey, listen, I'm just I just want to hear what you have to say. I'm gonna, let's take a break from me yelling. Let's just take a break from it.
I'm just going to put this spotlight on you, and I'm going to reflect back what you say, and I'm going to say, oh, so, you know, what do your friends think of cannabis? Or, you know, what is the attitude in your school? And whatever my teenager says, I'm just going to commit. I'm just going to reflect. I'm just going to reflect.
And usually that can get somebody talking. So those are kind of the basic skills, is like, Um, and then I think the other really essential piece is prefacing advice with, like, labeling it as advice and even asking, Hey, [00:33:00] so I appreciate you sharing your perspective on that with I've been doing some research on, on, on marijuana too.
Do you, do you mind if I share what I've learned? Hmm. Asking that permission and, and if somebody says no, it probably means they're, it's, you're wasting your breath. Like it's not a good time and you can come back to it another day. But usually if you've kind of heard somebody out, they'll say yes. And then that's when you have your chance to say, well, I'm really worried about it because.
You know, I'm, I'm worried about the THC content in these products, or I'm worried about, you know, your academics slipping or that you've been, you know, used to, it seemed like I didn't really have a problem with it when it was just at parties, but now it seems like it's an everyday thing and I really would appreciate, you know, thinking together about if, if you're interested in using less or, or, or even framing it as a question, like, well, what would you think about using less?
What's your motivation to To [00:34:00] use less is it none or are you actually curious about that? Have you been trying to use less because the idea is that if we come at people Who are a little bit motivated with a lot of like lecturing and scolding? Then they just get defensive and they're not even willing to talk with us And it's like, Oh, that person actually was motivated, like they were curious, they were interested.
Um, and now we've kind of blown that conversation, but you'll get another chance. That's what I always tell parents. You'll get
Brenda: another chance. Right. Right. You'll probably have another chance to smell weed in the car. Yes.
Hey, did you know HopeStream Community is a non profit organization and we are so happy to provide financial scholarships to over a quarter of the parents who use our services. We have our first ever giving campaign happening right now. And if you're a podcast listener and you've benefited [00:35:00] from the content here, we would love it if you'd help us keep this as a free resource for parents.
We're all about action at HopeStream Community, and over 84 percent of our members say they have noticed an improvement in their relationship with their child since joining. And over 69 percent believe their child has accepted help in one form or another as a result of their experience with us. So, we know lives are being changed, and we want to be able to help even more parents.
If you're able to give to our Year of Hope campaign, please go to hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash donate to learn more. Thank you. Now, back to the show.
I would say one of the top issues our families in Hope Stream community are dealing with is THC or marijuana. I call it THC because the products that are available today, like [00:36:00] waxes, shatter, oils, and concentrates are not the marijuana of the 60s, 70s, 80s, or even the 90s. These are totally different products and they are causing, among other problems, psychosis and serious mental health problems, suicide and self harm, and just an overall decline in the health and well being of adolescents and young adults.
I asked Dr. Libby Stout to join me for a massively important conversation about what exactly happened that these products got on the market and widely available to people who don't even yet have fully formed brains. Dr. Stout is an addiction psychiatrist with specialties in the developing brain, mental health, substance use disorders, adolescence and marijuana, and treatment and recovery.
If your young person is using high potency THC products, you do not want to miss this full episode. Here is just a taste of what we discussed in episode [00:37:00] 162. Back
Libby Stuyt: in 2000, um, marijuana was It was starting to get stronger, but it wasn't a problem. We weren't seeing a serious problem with it. And the highest potency back in 2000 was 5%, uh, in the plant.
And there were no concentrates. And so I, I really think people voted for it because they thought this was compassionate care for those poor people that were having very serious medical problems. 2009, we had 5, 000 people on the medical marijuana registry. By 2011, there were 119, 000. So people either got really, really ill all of a sudden, or they were flocking to get their medical cards so that they could You know, have legal marijuana.
And around 2010 is when the concentrates hit the market. So we started getting stronger and stronger potency things [00:38:00] to the point now. And so then we, we legalized recreational in 2012, the stores opened in 2014, and then we had incredible numbers of people that were getting marijuana and the potency. Now the average in the plant is around 20%.
But we have plants with much higher potency. And then the really concerning thing are the concentrates. Because we have concentrates that go all the way up to 99. 9 percent pure THC. And, and these are still being advertised and marketed as medicine. And they are available in the medical market, which is crazy.
Because there's no research on them at all. supporting their use in any kind of medical condition. And if you look at the research supporting marijuana for any medical condition, it's done with all less than 10 percent THC. And the problems are showing [00:39:00] up with THC higher than 10%. So 10 percent and higher is where we start seeing problems.
Lower than 10%, we don't see that many problems. And so that, what has happened in Colorado is the kids, I think, because their parents are using, their parents think it's safe, they think it's safe, they think it's medicine. So they're vaping oil, they're um, dabbing, wax shatter, these things that are very high potency and very, very dangerous for the developing brain.
And, and, and, you know, that goes all the way up to 25.
Brenda: Yeah. The dabbing, the concentrates and the shatter and all of that, that is where you're talking the concentrates that were introduced in 2010 that can be up to 99 percent pure THC, right? That is so frightening. And so
Libby Stuyt: we actually were seeing so many problems with adolescents in [00:40:00] Colorado that we were able to pass a bill in 21.
It was called House Bill 21 1317. Which, um, we didn't get everything we wanted, for sure, but we were able to get some things to happen, like, um, warnings, like there's a handout that if somebody goes to a dispensary to purchase a concentrate, they have to get this handout that says all the problems that are related to using these products, like addiction, psychosis, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome.
Uh, and the one thing we couldn't get on there, because the industry fought it, was suicide. However, there is so much research out there now demonstrating this high, high, high correlation between cannabis use and suicidal ideation and attempts. And in fact, in Colorado, it's the number one drug found in toxicology of teens who die by suicide.
And, and, and, you know, I. I prescribe [00:41:00] a lot of psychiatric medications that have black box warnings about suicide. I mean, pretty much everything that impacts the brain like that very strongly can have that effect. But so the other thing that we were able to get was a significantly decreased amount that could be purchased.
Because prior to this bill, 18 to 20 year olds could get medical marijuana cards without any parental consent or knowledge. And they could purchase 40 grams a day. I mean, that's like, insane! And everybody could purchase 40 grams a day. You know, people, the recreational, adults, medical. And, and so in this bill, we got it reduced to where 18 to 20 year olds can only purchase 2 grams a day.
And adults can have purchased eight grams a day. That's still a whopping amount [00:42:00] of marijuana. You know, we do have medication that is FDA approved, that is basically based on THC. So there's a drug called Marinol or Dronabinol, which, um, has been used for some time for people with severe cancer. You know, they're having debilitating illnesses where they can't eat, and so it's to help with them increasing their appetite.
And the maximum dose recommended by the FDA is 20 milligrams a day, so 10 milligrams BID. Now, an 18 year old with a medical marijuana card in Colorado can purchase 2 grams a day, so that's 2, 000 milligrams. If you look at that, like if it's an 80 percent THC, That's 1600 milligrams that they can purchase every day compared to the 20 [00:43:00] milligrams that they recommended for medicine.
Right.
Brenda: And that's, that's, it's insane. Well this is a first. I'm including a little bit from episode 176, which is a solo episode I did back in July. This short episode covers six decisions you get to make as a parent or caregiver to a young person who is misusing substances. I had no idea it was going to be a top most downloaded episode, but I guess it might be because having some concrete actions to consider is helpful when it might feel like so much of what you're dealing with is out of your control.
So from episode 176, here are some decisions you get to make. Take a listen. Number one, what you're going to do with big emotions. If there's one universality about having a child struggling. It's that you as their parent will feel big emotions and not all bad. [00:44:00] There can be amazing positive emotions on this journey as well.
And you and you alone get to decide what to do with them. One pivotal learning that I have taken away from all the therapy involved in the past eight or so years. is that no one can make me feel anything. I used to think, oh, he's making me so mad, or I'm so scared because he's doing X, Y, Z. What I now know is that other people's actions and my responses to them are completely discreet.
It may feel automatic to respond a certain way, but with intention and work, you get to decide what you feel. It is not anything that's in their control. See, there is some good news in all of this. The number two decision that you get to make is what you're going to do in the space between an event, If you've been listening here for long, you've probably heard us talk about the response [00:45:00] gap.
It is this exquisite period of time that is suspended between something happening and your response to it. If you choose to be strategic in how you use the response gap, it puts you in much more control than if you decided to just plow through it. It is like a cushion for what's going to happen next.
Again, like deciding what you're going to do with big emotions, it requires presence of mind and heart to step into that space and use it wisely. Using it wisely might look like going outside and taking a walk, doing some breathing exercises, calling a friend or a therapist, drinking some water and having some food.
Whatever gets you out of reaction mode and allows you to approach what's happening with deliberate action. Number three decision that you get to make is what you will feed your mind with. There's probably nothing more toxic than spending a lot of time [00:46:00] consuming content from today's media landscape. I have recognized this especially lately when I'm looking through Hulu or Netflix or Apple TV, I've noticed that the majority of what's available is about negative, horrible things, often involving drugs and crime and pain, whether it's real or fictitious.
And if you have this in your real life, you may not need to add more of it. And obviously there are shows and podcasts and even social media accounts that focus on the positive. But if you don't seek them out, it's easy to get steeped in a lot of negativity from the time you wake up until the time you go to bed.
So being really cognizant of what you're feeding your mind with is a decision that you get to make that can have a huge impact on your overall wellbeing and to this category of decisions in your control. I'm going to add self talk. The [00:47:00] way you talk to and about yourself with yourself is so important, and it is so in your control.
You may need to break some lifelong patterns because you may have talked negatively to yourself most of your life. But now that you're in this process of finding new footing, it's a good time to redirect your words and your thoughts to lean more into self compassion than self hate. Number four decision that you get to make is what you'll feed your body with.
Food, water, you may not even think about what you're putting in your mouth as having an impact on your overall management of this experience with your child, but they actually cannot be more connected. Your mind and heart can only function and react to the sustenance that you're providing for them. And I think it's important to say that this might not be the time to start any kind of diet or a new food lifestyle unless that feels helpful for you.
But [00:48:00] usually, if life is a bit chaotic, it's not the time to implement a whole new pattern that's going to require even more decision making for you. But the decisions you make about eating a plate of real food Versus something that is highly processed or manufactured food is pretty simple. Pouring a glass of water instead of downing a soft drink or another glass of wine is a decision that you are in control of.
And if you do that consistently, you're going to start feeling the benefit of providing your body with stuff that it can actually use to clear your head and to fuel you with the stamina and the energy that you need for this marathon that you're running. The number five decision that you get to make is how you will begin and end your days.
If you bookend your days with a simple plan, a routine that sets you up for a positive day and a night where you are optimized to sleep well, you're giving yourself a huge gift. This [00:49:00] one is so important because if you're riding the roller coaster, or even if you are now in a smoother place with a child who's in recovery, it's really easy to get absorbed by the day, by technology, by the outside world before your feet even hit the ground.
And it's also easy to let the day erode into haphazard sleep patterns because you are just so stinking tired and drained by it all. And when I say a simple routine or pattern for your mornings and evenings, I truly mean that. Simple. You get your phone, computer, tablet, all the devices out of your room at night.
And I know how dumb this sounds because I resisted doing it for a really long time. I know it sounds trivial. But I cannot tell you what a difference this made for my sleep. There's actually a lot of science behind it, which I won't go into. I will let you dig that out on your own because I know you're a researcher, but just try it for a week.
And for [00:50:00] mornings, protecting those first few minutes of your day without technology, with a few minutes of intentional gratitude, churling, stretching, breathing. Before anything else gets to penetrate your consciousness actually feels delicious. Number six decision that you get to make is who is in and out of your support circle right now.
Because I work with so many parents in all stages of this adventure, I see patterns of you being bombarded. With people who either don't support you or don't understand what's going on, and it just becomes an added drain on your mental and emotional resources, they are likely well-intentioned, and I always encourage you to assume good intent.
And still, at times, people just don't get it because they haven't taken the time to learn or come to a place of empathy and compassion for you [00:51:00] or your child. And of course, this one is so tricky, especially when it comes to family. But think about the people you spend time with and if they're an energetic drain or they don't emotionally support you.
Consider taking a little sabbatical from them for a while. Ask yourself, how would things be different if you were not interacting with them for a while? To temporarily distance yourself from a toxic person or a person who isn't fully in your corner, It is a brave decision. It is one that allows you to expand your energy where it needs to be, which is on your own wellness and helping your child.
And you can ask if they're willing to roll up their sleeves and work to understand what you're going through. Ask them to read or listen to the book Beyond Addiction. See, if they'll listen to a few of these podcast episodes, they may just need some education. And if not, then you get to [00:52:00] decide how much you let them into your world.
And remember, anything you do now does not have to be forever. Finally, I wanted to include an episode with a dad because I felt it was important for you to hear from a battle tested dad who has wrestled in the mess himself, literally. Steve Andrews is not just a dad in Hopestream Community, he's also the host of Our Space for Dads, and he's also a therapist who helps people better understand themselves and their relationships.
In this segment, Steve shares one of the hardest experiences of his life. It'll give you a taste of what we all share in common, doing things we can't believe we have the stamina or knowledge to do and living to tell about it. Take a listen to Steve in episode 183. When
Steve Andrews: we first realized there was some marijuana, all right, we're going to start.
Urine testing you. Then he switched to [00:53:00] DXM, which is, kids call it lean now, they call it a lot of things, but it's just basically cough syrup. And that was, that was honestly far scarier than the weed. His pupil would be so dilated there would be no iris. And he couldn't even string a sentence together. And it was, it was terrifying.
So I was, I didn't articulate this well at the time, but I was confused. I felt inadequate as a, as a, as a parent. I felt scared and frustrated and irritated. And most of what I did was try and lay down the law. It wasn't like coming from a place of compassion, like, you know, what are you getting out of this, buddy?
Like, it's like, I see you're struggling with it. Like it was coming from more like, this is my house and it's going to go down this way. Like it's, again, I think it's important to just be accountable for, for [00:54:00] that.
Brenda: Well, that's, I think how that's the default mode, because how would you know, there is another option to dealing with it.
It's like, we are going to discipline our way out of this. The more you misbehave. The more we're going to take things away, the more we're going to lock it down, the more we're going to get, you know, it's just, because what else do you know as a parent? You, nobody teaches you anything different. So I think your response is 99.
8 percent of parents response.
Steve Andrews: Yeah, we get judgmental. Like, that's, that is a, it's a default mode, right? Uh, caused more and more of a divide between he and I. Uh, the, the harder I got, the more distant he became, which makes total sense, right? I don't know about you, but just in the course of my life, I've seen overreaction do a lot more harm than underreaction.
And I would kind of, I would say that that was true with my son. [00:55:00] There was one night, and this was after he had been to treatment. We were doing intensive outpatient stuff. We were doing all, we're still trying to do everything. Uh, and there was one night I came home and he was high out of his mind. And didn't know what was happening and, and, uh, sent him.
To the back room to just to his, uh, bedroom to kind of just chill out so that we could have a conversation in the morning. Right. I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere trying to talk with him when he was that out of his mind. So after a few minutes, I come into the room and he's naked and he looks like a ferocious animal and he's crouched down and like, literally like an animal, like drool coming out of his mouth.
And I was like, put some fucking clothes on. And he looks around like an animal. And he literally like in one move, like flings, flings a window open and dive straight out the [00:56:00] window. And we're on the second floor. And I was 100 percent sure that he was dead because there's concrete underneath his window.
It's a driveways right in front. So I tear around out to the front of the house and. I look at the car like he's not there. There's no My wife's car was there with a big dent in the hood and his naked ass is booking down the street I hear the slapping ground his feet slapping the ground, uh, and then he comes back in the house and he I was scared for my son.
My younger son is watching, like, all of this. So my son comes in, he's got these two shrubs in his hand, they look like cut off heads, and he's buck naked, and he's just panting and wild eyed. I was like, please put, please put the shrubs down, son, and go to bed. And he kind of shoves his way [00:57:00] past me, and I was really scared for my youngest son.
And I got behind my oldest son and I took him down and I put him in a rear naked choke and we got into this horrible kind of physical confrontation where he was like bucking like a wild bull. I was just trying to subdue him. Then he starts vomiting and we're like oil wrestlers on the ground. Uh, and I'm just trying to subdue him but not hurt him.
Um, and my wife was going. Like, should I call the police? And he, no, this was, he was 18 at this point. So I didn't want him to have a criminal record. Right. So I was like, no, no, no, don't call, don't call. Like, we're just going to ride this out because I didn't want to limit his opportunity. Right? So we're rolling around in his filth and I, I held him all night long.
I, I finally picked him up, carried him to his [00:58:00] bed and I Spooned him all night long because I didn't want him to get up and run away. And the next morning I took him to the ER and the ER doctor was like, listen, you're, you have a second chance. You're most people that dive out a second floor windows don't get second chances.
Like that was the worst, single worst night of my life. I would say the longest and roughest night of my life. But at the same time, there is something. About being that close with another person in the shit together that forges a bond. And yeah, call it trauma, bond, and call it whatever you want. But it's, there's a level of closeness there.
He and I know.
Brenda: Okay friend, that is a wrap on 2023. I so look forward to 2024. We already have [00:59:00] some awesome guests in the queue. New coaching episodes coming up. And I would also love your ideas. If you have a question that you'd like to have addressed on a future episode or maybe you know of a guest that you would like to recommend, you can send an email to info at hopestreamcommunity.
org and we will take a look. Thank you so much for listening, for sharing episodes, for writing reviews, for being here week after week doing the hard work. It is you who's going to create those conditions for change in your family. And in the end, there's a ripple effect of positive motion, and for that, you deserve a big pat on the back.
Stay healthy, be ridiculously good to yourself today and always, and I will meet you right back here in 2024. This is the end of the video.[01:00:00]