Real Talk: Transparency and Accountability in Teen Conversations, with Dr. Janet Sasson Edgette
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Dr. Janet Sasson Edgette
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About this episode:
My guest today says that there are ways to right the ship if the communication in your home is less than effective. She shares why kids are often able to “run circles around” their therapists, and gives ways for parents to stop negotiating or handing over power to their kids. You’ll hear how to handle it when your child is disrespectful or disengaged, and how to be authentic at the same time. Dr. Janet Sasson-Edgette is a mother of three young adults and a child and adolescent psychologist who has written half a dozen books in the field.
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Janet: [00:00:00] Instead of asking the question of how do I get my kid to talk to me, we ask how can I be a more interesting person to my kids who actually wants to talk to me. They might not even know what you do. Oh my god, they don't know what their parents do. What's your dad do? I don't know, I think it has to do with computers. They don't know what their parents do.
Brenda: You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, You're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled.
This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So, after the episode, head over to our website at [00:01:00] hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show.
If you can relate to the act of walking on eggshells, or know what I mean when I say you have been gaslit by a 16 year old, or that your teenager really should be an attorney because they can negotiate absolutely anything brilliantly.
Then this is your episode, my friend. I remember times when I was so glad I had a business trip to go on because I was completely exhausted by my son and his ability to hold me hostage with his emotions and his responses to my requests about anything. I had allowed myself to be in a position where he was dictating the entire vibe of our home.
I altered my words, actions, because I was scared of what he was going to say or do in response. It was a nightmare and [00:02:00] caused so much stress on me and every person in our house. And I'm a reasonably intelligent person, and I figured this wasn't how it was supposed to be. But for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how to right the ship and get our communication back on track or how to re become the parent in our relationship.
Fortunately for you, there is Dr. Janet Sassen Edgett. I didn't know about her or her work until recently, which is why I reached out to her and asked if she would sit down with me for an episode to talk about how we can stop negotiating, right the power imbalance. Be more effective in how we interact with our kids and a lot more.
Dr. Ajat is a child and adolescent psychologist, author of six books, mom to three boys, and an accomplished equestrian jumper. Big part of Janet's career has been in training other therapists how to work with adolescents because there's a tendency to [00:03:00] try and use what works with adults, but just shrink it down somehow.
And if your child has worked with a therapist and you feel like they have just run circles around them, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Dr. Ajat's books for parents include The Last Boys Picked, Helping Boys Who Don't Play Sports Survive Bullies and Boyhood, and Stop Negotiating With Your Teen, Strategies for Parenting Your Angry, Manipulative, Moody, or Depressed Adolescent.
Mm hmm. Now you know why I had to get her on the podcast. There is so much in this conversation. I would highly recommend picking up Janet's book, Stop Negotiating With Your Teen, in particular if you're having trouble with communication and relating to your young person. So take a listen now. This is me and Dr.
Janet Sasson Edgett, and I will see you on the other side.[00:04:00]
Hello, Dr. Janet Sasson Edgett. I'm so thrilled to have you here today. I was telling you when we talked earlier, I have no idea how. You've not been in my orbit, um, but I'm so glad you are now. So welcome to HopeStream. I'm excited to get into all the stuff we're going to talk about. Me too. So, okay, this is just the best.
So you're a child and adolescent psychologist and you have three boys of your own. And so I got to, like right there, we could just stop and I would just let
Janet: you go. It would be a
Brenda: fantastic episode for sure. Um, but I think being a child and adolescent psychologist in today's world has got to be pretty fascinating.
What is that like in this kind of post COVID, um, aftershock? Holy cow. Like, talk to me about that a little bit. Yeah.
Janet: So, you know, kids have [00:05:00] always struggled, but now they struggle more publicly, I guess is what I'd say. And they're much more comfortable letting people know that they are struggling. Mental health.
I mean, the youth, youth really has grown the mental health. Movement tremendously in terms of ability to talk about it, to bring attention to it, to bring attention to themselves. And then, you know, parents are now more on board and able to get their kids help. The problem is there aren't enough services, but that's a whole other problem.
At least, you know, kids are much, I mean, I, I have kids come in here and they say, you know. Oh, you know, I was talking to Soso and, and I didn't like, you know, she's your therapist, you're her therapist too. And everybody talks about their therapist. Like, uh, it's just a lot easier than a few
Brenda: years ago for a lot of kids, but they struggle
Janet: with, um, a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety.
Um, I love my work. I, I love my clients in, in the sense of just, I don't know, I just, the emotional intimacy that develops with a really, you know, [00:06:00] terrific connection. It's very special to me because it's the vehicle through which I can influence. But I am seeing a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, a lot of kids vaping nicotine, smoking nicotine, a lot of people, a lot of kids smoking weed.
It's, it's pretty bad out
Brenda: there. It is. I was going to ask you about that because the, we're seeing in our community for parents, we're seeing a lot of problems with the THC concentrates. Yes. Because it's just bringing on like that paranoia and even psychosis so quickly. This isn't like, Oh, a year later, they're starting to have these problems.
It's months later. And do you see that being related to that, that kind of higher level of anxiety that kids are dealing with today and, and obviously THC works, right? Like it's, they're not dumb. These kids are smart. THC works until it becomes a problem. Do you see a connection there?
Janet: Well, I think anxiety is almost like, um, the [00:07:00] old, in the chem labs, we had, you know, Bunsen burners.
It's like, anxiety is like a Bunsen burner, you know, you put it under anything and it's just going to get worse. It's just going to become an issue, so, uh, that is sort of the foundation experience for a lot of kids. It's going to draw them into more use and it's going to make some of the use become more problematic.
So when
Brenda: you see kids, I'm curious, what brings them there. And I know just as a parent of a 16 year old, I was trying to get into therapy at the time trying to get a teenager. Now, I think I feel like there's two camps. They're the ones who are like The cool ones were like, it's kind of cool to have a therapist, but then there's also the ones who maybe have been to some treatment, they've been doing some, you know, IOP or something, and they're just therapied out.
What are you seeing from that standpoint and how do you get them to
Janet: engage? Years ago, I wrote an article called, Why Teens Hate Therapy. And it's [00:08:00] my most popular article because people really, you know, want to know more about that. And they hate it. I'm going to say hated. I don't think that's quite so true these days.
But back when I wrote it, that was kind of the overarching sentiment. Um, it's weird for kids. It's, it's, uh, you know, they don't solve problems by sitting down with somebody and talking about. They don't do that, let alone for a stranger and, um, and it's also, I think, for many kids found to be irrelevant because therapists who have trouble engaging talk about, you know, they ask about hobbies or about sports or about school and it's like, that's not a conversation that's going to get any real traction and kids know that you're having trouble starting conversations so you're going to those old standbys and then they just get pummeled with a bunch of questions.
I mean, it's really. unpleasant. And they have a lot of them, I hear bad experiences, you know, where they're just sitting there and the therapist isn't helping them get a conversation going. And what are we expecting a kid to do? And it's awkward. So I totally get that. So some come [00:09:00] in here, um, especially, you know, if they've gone through some of the IOPs, some of the IOPs are really not very helpful.
They're very standardized. It's a protocol. You get a worksheet and there's nothing. There's nothing very personal about it and there's nothing very moving about the experience. So kids are, or like you said, they're therapied up. What I try and do here is create a very different experience. And so from the moment they come here, I want them to think, oh, this might be different.
So years ago, we all learned, you know, this tidy little box of, you know, Empathy, unconditional regard, you know, support, blah, blah, blah. These are all the things that are going to engage your kids. No, they're not. So therapists base too much on that. So they become overly solicitous and overly nice and overly sympathetic and the kid's just like, Oh my God, this is just weird.
This is not a normal conversation. It's not a normal relationship. It's only half of the relationship. It's just the nice half. It's weird and the contract's wrong. So kids, [00:10:00] because they're astute about these things, they kind of spook as well. It's just weird. So I think the more important piece is In a person that will track the interest of anybody, not just a teenager, are credibility, um, gestures of respect, and accountability.
And I think a lot of therapists may have trouble holding their teenager clients accountable in therapy, much like parents do, because balancing that compassion, compassion and respect with asking for accountability is, is, it's a twin balancing act. It's very hard. So when kids come, I like to present as credible.
respectful and that I will hold them accountable. And I think that to me is a foundation that for me has worked well in my work with teenagers. So I'm not very formal. I'm trying to be down to earth. They come in, I got my dog here. Um, I joke around, I mix it up with the, you know, it's just, it's like, I try and keep a [00:11:00] conversation much as it would be in real life.
And of course therapeutic conversations are different because they have a specific purpose and they have to be guided and shepherded along that, but when we stray from the rhythm and cadence and, and, um, and, and use of words and language, when we stray really far from that, and we ask these awkward questions or stilted conversations.
Again, it's like weird and anything that's weird is not going to work very well. So approximating a normal conversation and then from there going into what really matters, asking not so many questions, but the therapist talking, you know, me talking, I, you know, sometimes I say, I talk a lot. Is that okay?
You know, they're like, it's just a different experience. And it's And, and kids get interested and they think, okay, I'll give this a try. And I try and make it meaningful right from the very first session. I want kids walking away with something they can say, I'll go back. Yeah, I'll go back. Well,
Brenda: that's a huge win.
If you can get a [00:12:00] teenager, especially one that's been through some amount of therapy or programs or whatever it is, if you can get them to agree to go back, that is such a win. And what I hear too, I'd be curious to get your, um. What I hear a lot from parents is, oh, my kid just ran circles around their therapist, told them what they want to hear, therapist tells me everything's fine, I know everything's not fine because my kid's still smoking weed all day every night.
What, what do you do with a situation like that? Because I'm sure you can sniff out a kid who is just telling you what you want to hear.
Janet: Yeah. I believe that that's true. And, and, and actually I, I get. In the community, I, I kind of get the referrals for the more difficult kids, and I love that. Um, they're like, go see Edge It, go see Edge It for a kid who's just like, totally against it, or very slick.
Um, and I, you know, I try and be Discerning enough to pick up on it. And [00:13:00] I'll just call him out. I'll be, you know, and it's like you can call someone accountable and they'll accept it because I'm not telling them they have to do anything different, you know, like, I don't know, let's say some kid pulls out his phone.
I'll be like, you're kidding me, right? And they'll look up and I'll be like, You are a kid. And it'll be, Oh yeah, I was just kidding. You know, whereas another therapist might be like, Oh, you know, um, it's probably better if you don't put, if you've put your phone away so we can have a conversation. It's like, you know, the more real and the more comfortable you could be in saying, we didn't do it.
The more kid will hang around and engage because it's a real conversation. And I think a lot of therapists are afraid holding kids to account and therapy isn't a matter of like getting them to acknowledge their problem or getting them to work on their problem at all. It's just ascribing intent. It's where a therapist says, I'm not going to pretend that you didn't know what you were doing.
I'm not going to say, don't do it again. I'm just, I don't want to have to pretend. I want to speak to the truth in the room, which is like, look, I know that [00:14:00] you did that on purpose. Okay. Let's move on. It's doesn't have to be awkward. It doesn't have to be critical. It's just saying, I don't want to have to pretend.
I didn't hear you just say that to your mom, you know, we're going to go on with the conversation because that's not important. And this conversation is, I'm not going to be, you know, I might say something like, wow. You said that as if, like, you're telling me what you had for breakfast. Something like that.
And then I'll look, and then I'll go away and go back to it. So I'm not leaving. You know, I just want the kid to know I'm going to acknowledge it. Not a problem. Do it if you want to, but I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen. Stuff like that. And I think if more therapists were comfortable moving in that direction, it would be easier for kids to feel like, okay, this is a relationship I can, I can invest in because there's something real here.
You know, and, and I'm not going to be placated like other places, not going to be
Brenda: placated. I think that's huge. And I wonder if that is something that, [00:15:00] you know, I think the parenting style of today tends to be a little bit more on the placating side, right? We don't, for some reason we're in this. Culture of not wanting to upset our kids and I kind of a helicopter parenting or whatever, you know, device of parenting it is of the day.
Do you see that kids are really craving what like what you're talking about the accountability, the realism, because maybe they're not getting that at home.
Janet: So much so, Brenda. So wish I think you're spot on with that. I find parents, many ways over the past, I'm going to say 1020 years have lost some of their confidence in their parenting.
Right? Because the youth culture has become so strong and so, not primary, but you know, it used to be like the main culture of adults and secondary, you know, was youth culture. Youth culture now is so prominent and is part of everything, clothing and music. And it's the boundary isn't defined. And, you know, older [00:16:00] people like younger music and younger people like retro and it's all mixed up.
And I think kids sometimes get. Empowered by the idealization of youth on part of parents and the idealization is something that sometimes I think as a parent go well, I don't know, maybe they're right. You know, maybe, maybe that is too early or curfew, you know, it's like they get emboldened by the idealization of the generation, and then parents lose their step and kids are very good at exploiting that so all they have to see is a parent just a slight, slight Trepidation, uncertainty, and the kid moves in and exploits that and makes a parent, you know, feel whatever.
If the parent likes to be helpful, they'll make that parent feel helpless. If that parent likes to be in control, they will help, they will, you know, do something to make that parent feel not in control or anxious. You had that dynamic in the parents like, okay, [00:17:00] yeah, I guess. And that's part of the problem is that idealization and blurring of generational boundaries.
But I do think that kids are craving that accountability because that feels secure. It's like it's, it's a, it's a, it's a good package. It's a package of. If there's also respect in there, respect toward the teenager and teenager toward the parent, then being held accountable in a way that's not critical, that's not designed to hurt, but designed to say, Hey, I want you to be your best self.
And that's what accountability does. It really helps us be our best selves. Because we're accountable to the people who we care about and care about us. And I think one of the lacking emotional skills in a lot of kids today is an attuneness to the impact of their choices and behaviors on other people.
Brenda: Yes. I'm just taking notes because there's just so much in here that I want to ask you about. I think the, the struggle for [00:18:00] parents is that balance of Giving the respect and holding them accountable because it obviously can't be one or the other. It can't be a hundred percent one way or the other. Maybe talk a little bit about how do we, at the same time, really hold our kids accountable for their actions and their choices, um, their behavior.
But also show them a lot of respect because they deserve a lot of respect. They're amazing people. What does that look like, especially from a parent's standpoint? Like how do you see your, the parents that you work with become successful
Janet: at that? So here would be an example. Let's say an older teenager comes home from school and goes over to his younger brother who is Um, play soccer and, uh, gave up the winning goal that day at the school soccer game.
And let's say [00:19:00] that older teenager looks over to him and goes, Oh, nice job, kid, you know, or some other snide remark like that. And a lot of parents sometimes will just go, you know, be nicer to your brother, um, you know, or be nicer to your brother, you
Brenda: know, don't be a jerk, don't be a jerk,
right?
Janet: Okay. And the older teenager, um, just ignores it and goes on.
I think another way to handle it that holds the teenager accountable in that moment and makes it a little uncomfortable for him without any, never, never humiliate, never sarcastic, never belittle, but just says, I'd like to see you do something else is to say, come here for a second. I want to talk to you.
And just say all the things that you could have said to your grandmother, why would you choose that? Yeah. Well, then the kids like. I don't know, you know, like, I don't know, just, and say, I would love for you, and doesn't have to be right now, but I would love for you sometime later, next hour or two, to go over and find a [00:20:00] different way to say hi to your brother after school, just something.
I mean, you could do so much in that moment, and I'm sorry that you chose that to make somebody feel worse. I'd like to see you be more comfortable. Expressing like, hey, dude, don't worry about it or whatever you're going to say, I don't need to know when, but, um, I'd really like that to be the household in which we live.
I don't like the other one and then drop it, move away. And the kid's standing there like, you know, okay, you know, he didn't expect, it's not a lecture. It's just like, no, not in this household. I don't want that. You know, change it, find a different way to say that. You know, if the kid's rude to a parent, say, Find a different way to ask me that question.
Because that one's not going to get any answer you're going to like. You know, not the don't talk to me that way, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, it's like, well, let's say, um, okay, okay, kids have trouble sometimes apologizing. So do [00:21:00] adults. You know, let's say you want to see your kids be We're comfortable or apologize to each other, you know, say we as a family, and I'm making this up and I'm saying we as a family, we are the worst apologizers like nobody here likes to apologize.
Everybody wants to be right. And that's really just a victory in name only because we're all walking around, you know, Well, angry because we think we're right. Whatever. I think we need to do something about that. Um, and I'm going to start. I, you know, I'm going to start. I'm going to become a better apologizer somehow and maybe you guys will join me.
I don't know. Things like that where you join in and you say, we can have a different environment at home here, but it's a conversation. It's a respectful conversation. I like that
Brenda: because what it does is it involves the whole family instead of just placing blame on one person who often tends to be a teenager.
Right, right. Because they're, they're out there gaining their, you know, their [00:22:00] sea legs and trying to figure out how does, the world work and how do I interact and, and I think there's been such a shift to parents wanting to be the friend and wanting to be the cool parent that it can get real, like you said, it can get really messy and those lines get blurred about who is the parent, who is the child, how do we stay confident in our parenting to know, Oh, you know, your curfew is midnight.
I honestly don't care what Johnny's curfew is. Right. That's
Janet: interesting. Oh, it's so funny. Some, I can't even tell you how many times I've sat with a family in initial session and I looked at like the parents and the teenager and I'll just sit back and I'll say, see y'all, you all talk together. Your son talks to you like you're all roommates.
And the parents go, yes, yes, it's like, it's like you're all peers. What's up with that. So I've identified a dynamic that's very problematic but usually nobody's able to articulate it. feels wrong. [00:23:00] Um, so it's really hard to hold a kid like that accountable. But going back to your question, how do you do that respectfully?
I think a parent could say, look, you know, you haven't been the best citizen around. You leave a lot of stuff for other people to pick up on. And I don't like that. And I don't like nagging you. I feel like a border crowd nipping at your heels every night. And I, you know, I don't want this to be the situation for the next five years, but I do need you to, to be more responsive to stuff that's needed in the house and to put down your phone when we ask you in that sense.
So, um, you need to know that I'm going to, I'm going to make some changes and you probably won't like them, but I think we need them and I'll use this leverage, whatever I need to, if it's your phone, it's your phone, but I'm going to ask in the evening for you to give me your phone. And then you get. I've done what you need to and you can have it back as soon as you have it done, but this one I wanted to chase you around.
Something like that.
Brenda: That just sounds like such a, uh, healthier conversation that I know there were in my [00:24:00] family for sure, because you're, you really are tuning to The reality of their situation, which leads me to another question, which is, you know, we don't know what it's like to be a teenager in the year 2023 and you're sitting with these, you know, beautifully complex humans every day.
What is going on with our young people today that we might not. think about as a parent? Like what's, what's nagging at them? What's, what's bothering them? What's giving them anxiety that we probably
Janet: don't even have a clue about? Well, one thing, the social environment, the social climate is just very difficult these days.
I mean, it's always difficult, especially middle school and all that, but it's so judgy. I mean, social media, you know, is really taking that and run off with it. It's just so judgy. So kids get so self conscious about what they're wearing, what their hair looks like in school. They don't want to fall out in class because it might be wrong.
You know, everyone [00:25:00] likes to have the right answer, but I don't know that. 30, 40 years ago, it stopped kids from participating in class. Well, now it stops kids from participating. They will not, you know, I, I see kids. They will not go up to the lunch, to the cafeteria, to get more food, unless somebody goes with them.
Cause they can't stand being walking across by themselves because of the attention they might draw. I have a kid who does everything she can not to cough, not to sneeze, just tremendous amount of. Real or perceived judgment. Um, so the social anxiety about that has increased tremendously and it's very uncomfortable.
Brenda: No wonder because, you know, I think in our day if something happened, it was like between you and your best friend and then there was a note passed in the hallway and maybe word spread. A few days later, but now,
Janet: now it's, it's
Brenda: just on fire the minute it happens, right?
Janet: You know, the thing I don't, I [00:26:00] really don't like is seeing kids use, um, that as recreation, you know, making people feel bad about themselves and become recreation.
The sneering, the snide, the catty, you know, um. Uh, you know, I don't like that and that's so embedded in the culture, particularly middle school. And I would love to see more attention on that, more intervention around that because it's brutal. It's really brutal. It is
Brenda: brutal. I would love to find out from you.
I always hear eighth grade. That tends to be this turning point for a lot of kids. It was for mine. It is for so many of the parents I work with that they can really identify eighth grade as the place where their kid went down the wrong road. If there's a split in the road, healthy, not healthy, that's when they tend to go to the not healthy.
And maybe that's even creeping younger now into seventh grade. Do you see that? And why
Janet: is that? That's a great question. I've never really thought about that, but I could see it being true. [00:27:00] I, I think in eighth grade, um, a certain percentage of kids are gonna start thinking like, oh wow, next year's high school now stuff matters.
And so they start orienting that way. And in that, you know, there's a bit of a maturation process and, and there's sort of an aspirational, like, I want to be in high school. I want to be that student. I want to go there and. Within that larger group, of course, there's going to be a percentage of kids who are very grade conscious now, okay, now it matters.
And so, part of that is, you know, that's the kid who's probably going to try and do well and not get herself or himself into much trouble and so forth. Um, and then you have other kids, I think, they look at high school and they're like, oh my god, I have to do this for another four years? Right. You know, they're not invested in it.
You know, they, they might have gotten a lot of social capital from being, you know, witty or sort of clown, not clowny, but you know, witty or funny. [00:28:00] And that stuff doesn't hold in high school. You know, the jokes that made someone popular in middle school, if you don't have the social and emotional resources to, to kick it up a notch and upgrade, get the new download, you know, you're gonna.
Kind of be on the outs. You know, the kids were really impulsive. The kids who count on, um, they got a lot of attention for acting goofy or acting out. It doesn't carry that kind of social, you know, capital when you get in high school. It's like, Oh, okay, whatever. Who cares? And that was done. And so now they've lost that.
And I could see that being a reason why some kids really start. You know, like, where do they go and what do they do and what are they invested in now if they're not invested in school? So, in paving very broadly, I could see that being sort of split. Now, one thing I did want to add was going back to your other question about the stressors that we may not be aware of.
Grades is number one. Grades is the number one stressor [00:29:00] for kids. It's become overbearing for so many of these kids. And, you know, a couple years ago, Washington, yeah, it was Washington Post, said that, um, the, that students in high achieving schools are at risk group. They are named an at risk group. Behind poverty, behind discrimination, behind trauma, is at, is, uh, kids in high achieving schools.
These kids are so worried about grades, um, and, and it's not just in high school, and it's not just for, you know, it's, it's performance all around. I, I gotta be the best player on the team. I gotta be best in here. I gotta be the best. I gotta be the best. It's tremendous pressure. Why? Because I gotta get him a good college.
Like, there's 6, 000 universities in this, in this country. 4, 000 of them give degrees. You're okay. No, my parents, you know. I said, there's only six good colleges. It's [00:30:00] crazy and it's really destroying our kids. It's creating a whole other problem, a whole anxiety about their future. I have kids in middle school who are anxious about college.
I'm like, whoa, whoa, where are you going? You're in a rush. No, no, my guidance counselor like this, my parents told me, I don't know what I want to be when I'm this old or what courses. And I'm like, oh my God. I mean, just listening to them makes me anxious. Just like, it's great. We have to change the conversation about grades.
We have to change the conversation about colleges in our country. We have to change this conversation because they're really struggling with it. It's too much.
Brenda: Hi, I'm taking a quick break to let you know some exciting news. There are now two private online communities for supporting you through this experience with your child or children. The stream community for those who identify as moms and the woods for [00:31:00] guys who identify as dads. Of course, this includes step parents and anyone who is caring for a young person.
who struggles with substance use and mental health. The Stream and the Woods exist completely outside of all social media, so you never have to worry about confidentiality. And they're also ad free. So when you're there, you'll be able to focus on learning the latest evidence based approaches to helping people change their relationship with drugs and alcohol.
In both communities, we have a positive focus without triggering content or conversations. And we hope you learn to be an active participant in helping your child move towards healthier choices. You'll also experience the relief of just being able to be real, connect with other parents who know fully what you're going through, and have battle tested mentors alongside.
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from your seat. What are some of those things that we unconsciously are doing as parents? Because I think all parents, you know, have the best intentions and are not maliciously, they're trying to stress out our kids, but what are besides, you know, pressuring them about college and grades. Are there other things or conversations that we're having with them that we could just probably like Put a clip on and, and it would be better off if we stopped.
Janet: I think one of the mistaken notions about adolescents is that they were too separated from their parents. They want to get as far away as possible. And I don't think that this is true. I don't think that the idea of maturation and growth and separation and individuation Ever had to mean [00:33:00] becoming independent from your parents or your family.
It's not about that. I sit with these kids all day long. They want engagement. They want connection. They don't want the distance that a lot of families feel all living under the same roof. Mary Pifer, a wonderful author about families, talks about it as being thirsty in the rain. You know, this idea of being surrounded by people but being so lonely.
And I think it's that kind of disconnect that a lot of families feel. Kids really want to stay connected, but it is hard to do that if you're coming home and you're met with um, a barrage of questions about your school day and you're met with um, a parent who gets upset because you're not answering those questions.
I had one kid say to me, I don't even answer the first one because I know behind it are 20 more. So, you know, they just, they go, everything was fine and they go upstairs to avoid that. How can we have different conversations with [00:34:00] Our kids, how can we have conversations that are inviting so that instead of asking the question of how do I get my kid to talk to me, we ask, how can I be a more interesting person to my kids who actually wants to talk to me?
Yeah. Because I think sometimes as parents, you know, we get so focused on the business of parenting, we become one dimensional, you know, what time, what do you need, blah, blah, blah. You know, and we forget. That we are people with humor and sensibilities and emotions and reactions to that needs to be part of the conversation.
It shouldn't be just one way. We're asking kids all the time to tell us about them. It's boring if we're not part of that conversation. And then it's annoying if we already trying to make a point. So it. Amy comes home and starts telling you about her friend Ella, who she's been saying is a really great friend and a great [00:35:00] kid and really, you know, likes being around her.
And one day she comes home and says, you know, Ella, you know, was out and she was at a party and she started drinking and there was all these problems. And if a peer says, Oh, I thought Ella was somebody who would never do that. Well, you've just hijacked the conversation to make a point. That maybe, you know, you're trying to get your kid to realize, well, your judgment is always spot on, but the kid has exited the conversation, right?
And so that kind of thing where you can just say, Oh my gosh, tell me more, tell me more. It's so simple. It's so beautiful. It's a great invitation.
Brenda: That is amazing. I, I recently had a mom who told me, she said, I was standing in the kitchen with my 18 year old and I turned to my phone and I typed into Google, what do you talk to a 19 year old about or an 18 year old?
Janet: Cause she didn't know what to
Brenda: say. You know, she didn't have any way to relate with
Janet: him. It's [00:36:00] sad. It's so sad. And it's, it's all over the place. It's not just, it's so many parents and, and kids not knowing how to have a conversation. I think if that parent had turned to the 19, the 18 year old and said, I so badly want to have a conversation with you right now, and I have no idea how to do that.
And the kid will look kind of a little disarmed and like, I don't know, and say, that's all I got for right now, but I'm going to keep trying. I, I really wanted, I don't know, I'm hungry to talk to you and I can't believe I don't even know how to do it. Mmm, that's so beautiful. And I think it's that kind of candor and transparency that does engage, you know, that's, that's real.
That's, it's compelling. It draws people into you, whether you're a teenager or anybody, you know, with that kind of thing. And I think if we can be that candid and open with our kids, they'll join us and we'll figure out together, you know, and you stumble and you say, all right, let's try again. And God, it's just so weird.
And then all of a sudden, you know, [00:37:00] you, you tell a funny story about yourself. And you realize, God, I never talked about myself with you, I'm like, wow. And you realize and you learn and you get built from there. I asked one parent, I said, I said, what, what'd you do if you're, she was surprised that a kid had asked the parent how her day was.
And I said, why is it so, she goes, I would drop on the floor if my kid ever asked me how my day was. And I understand it, but I think it's so sad. And I think a lot of parents would say, my kid doesn't care what I do all day. Say, well, say something about yourself so that he can care, give him something to care about.
They might not even know what
Brenda: you
Janet: do, right? I think. Oh my God. We said they don't know what their parents do. What's your dad do? I don't know. I think it has to do with computers or they don't know what their parents do. It's [00:38:00] so unbelievable,
Brenda: but it's so true because we, we've just sort of dissected our lives into these, you know, compartments where it's like, okay, now I'm a parent, I got my parent hat on.
I got to do the parent thing. I got to know how to do this. And we forget that we're also human, which is a question I have too, about trying to be transparent as a parent, trying to be transparent and vulnerable with our kids. So they see us as humans. Which I think is important, but if we, if we do that.
Well, that caused our kids to worry about us even like they're already worried and have anxiety. And I think I know for myself, I would hesitate to say like when my oldest son was struggling with substances, I didn't want to talk to my younger son because I didn't want him. I just pretended like everything was fine because I didn't want to stress him out more.
Right. How do we walk that line of being vulnerable, being transparent about our lives and what's going on without adding additional burden [00:39:00] to our teenagers who are often.
Janet: You know, have anxiety anyway. Kids always know something's up. They always know when something's right. Okay, kids come in here and they say, my parents are gonna get divorced.
I know. You know, like they, they know and the parents are thinking we've been, we haven't said anything to the kids. We, they don't know. They know. But as far as even, you know, somebody in the family who's struggling, kids always know that something's off. And in the absence of information, that kind of not knowing and anxiety actually causes more anxiety sometimes.
And the information would result in. So, information sometimes can be comforting. It doesn't have to be a full disclosure. It could be, listen, I want to share with you some things that have been going on with your older brother. You've probably noticed, you know, we've, Dad and I have been spending a lot of time and a lot of conversations, you know, um, I've spoken with Ben and, um, he's okay with you knowing that he's struggling with this and that and we're getting treatment for him and that might involve this and that.
[00:40:00] Um, and you know, Dad and I are worried, but we feel we got a good team. Um, if you have questions, always, I don't know that I'd be comfortable answering all the questions, but I will answer as many as I think are appropriate for me to do so, but I just wanted to let you know where things stand. You're not asking the kid to hold your burden of sadness or anxiety.
You're not asking to take care of, you're not, you know, there's no burden placed on the kid and, and there's no added anxiety. It probably is much more. And I
Brenda: think that's a, it's a tightrope walk that we
Janet: do. Um, to know
Brenda: what to say, how much to say it, how to say it so that we're appropriate, um, but not, not placing that burden because it can feel pretty heavy, whether it's a sibling with substance use or [00:41:00] marital problems or whatever.
Right. But you're right. They, they are like, they're like dogs, like they know. They sense and they know.
Janet: You know, very, very astute. They're very astute at the dynamics between people, between themselves and adults. Um, as adults, I can, I think sometimes we tend to, I don't know, maybe put more of a Pollyanna spin on things.
And don't see things maybe for what they are.
Brenda: Yeah, definitely. And, and I think a lot of that comes back to our own emotional regulation, the way we were raised and whatever mess we're bringing into our parenting style. What are some of the ways that you work with parents to help them be a little bit more regulated so that they don't.
Go crazy and start screaming or shut down entirely. Like how, how can we as parents be a bit more attuned to ourselves so that we can then be [00:42:00] more attuned to our
Janet: kiddos? One thing I think that helps is for parents to respond earlier in the sequence of, because often they're trying to contain, they're trying to, you know, they ask the kid again and again.
Again and again, and then finally it just gets to the point where they're just so angry or so resentful and blow, right? But if you get to it earlier, if you start earlier, if you say, look, this is feeling a lot like the arguments we always have about this and I, neither, they never end well. I want to stop it here and I want to try and come back to this differently.
I don't even know what that's going to look like. But I don't like the way this is going. A second thing would be to simply say whatever you're going to say. Like, for instance, if you're, if at the end of that sequence, the parent is yelling the consequence. If they do that earlier, if they say, listen, I'm getting really frustrated here.
You need to know if you keep harassing me about going to the concert, which you cannot go to. If you keep at me, I will take your phone for [00:43:00] the rest of the evening. And that's it. You know, tomorrow you have it back, but I, I can't go through the evening with you, you know, and you just keep coming at me so early on before it gets up to that point where it's like, ah, early
Brenda: interventions.
Right.
Janet: Another thing that sometimes helps us thinking about how do I want to show up as a parent here, you know, parents say, I don't like what I said, I don't like how I get them thinking about how do I want to show up, how do I want to be able to look back on this moment. You know, is there a, a, a way that I can feel good about how I handle it, regardless of the outcome, I can't control that at all.
I can't control how I respond. And I want to stay respectful toward my kid and with a sense of dignity to myself. Those are my goals. We may not, we may not resolve the problem, but I want to stay respectful and dignified. So how do you want to show up? It's another thing. That can be done. [00:44:00] I also think it's important for parents to remember that the kids probably not happy either.
You know, it's not, not happy either, even though they might look complacent about their lack of participation or their complacency about schoolwork, but they're not happy with all the noise, you know, in the household. And you know, this is maybe, you know, a little idealistic for some who are really struggling, but how can you approach this from the same side of the fence?
Like we yell too much in this house. It's too much. I'm always mad at you. You're always mad at me. I don't know. How could we? approach this from, can we look at the problems on the same side of the fence? Even just throwing out that question suggests, I want to do this differently, even if you don't know how to do that.
It says collaboration. I don't like this. I don't like the way we've been doing it. And I'm going to keep showing this the other way. And it's a, it's a nice olive branch. It's a nice gesture of respect and [00:45:00] support. And it lends a different message. And if it just softens the kid a little bit, that might be enough to get, you know, a few degrees to the right or the left.
And even something like, I miss when we used to have dinner together. You know, I'm not going to sit here and expect everyone to show up and we're all going to have chatty, nice, laughing comedy, but I really want to say that, and I just want to say that, and then go back to washing the dishes or back to, and you leave it in the air because sometimes if you put too fine a point on it, you know, like, let's name three things we can do to get back, well, just leave it in the air.
So, because if. You go too far, then kids have to like, you know, reject it. But if it's in the air, they can think, Oh yeah, I kind of do too. And they don't have to say it out loud so they can think it. And that's the first step of a return. Yeah.
Brenda: Oh, that's so beautiful. Well, I know I have to let you go, but I do want to ask you because the title of your, I think it's your most recent book, The Last Boys Picked.
Helping boys who don't play sports survive bullies and boyhood. We [00:46:00] might have to do podcast number two just on that because it is so, so, so needed. Tell me a little bit about why you decided to write that and what you hope it
Janet: gives people. So thank you for the opportunity to do that. Of my three boys, two are twins and one of them very early on was very athletic and the other one was not.
And so I saw also early on what this meant for them in terms of their self confidence and then the social Um, you know, regard they got from other kids, so even like in first grade, I remember watching Austin, if I don't, playing football with the other kids at the bus stop, and Jake is stuck with the moms and the girls.
Not that he wanted to be there, but there was nowhere else for him to go. And so when you're seven and eight and nine, what matters is how fast you run, how well you catch a ball, how, what sport, blah, blah, blah, for boy, not also girls. So, you know, it's getting that way, but especially for boys. So the boy who is not really good at [00:47:00] sports, but doesn't like sports, can easily find himself marginalized from the main social group and then lose confidence.
So Austin is growing up with this sense of confidence and Jake, not so much. So, you know, I just. You know, followed them into middle school, into high school. And I spent a lot of time with the boys, um, hoping Jake realized that he was going to have to wait, that the things that he was good at were things on the inside.
His, his capacity to see dynamics in people and respond to that. His love for rules, his reading, loved reading. He loved movies. He loved character study. Um, he loved So many different things, and he was so good at many things, but they're not the things that matter when you're an eight year old boy, a 13 year old boy.
So helping him value his non physical abilities and helping the community around him value them all stuff. This is why I wrote that book, because there's so many boys like [00:48:00] Jake. It's hard for them to define their people because nobody wants to say, Hey, anyone else around here not good at sports?
Brenda: Exactly.
Exactly. And
Janet: so that was really important because I just didn't see a lot of anything, literature, material, or anything about the boy who just doesn't follow that, you know, hard playing, aggressive, you know, male ideal, the ideas we have about what boys should look like. And, and there wasn't anything for them.
And we need to value boys and men like that. We need them in our community as, oh my gosh, there's so many things. And yeah. So that's why I wrote that. And it's just a funny end cap to that story is that, um, the boys who remained very, very close throughout their lives. Um, it's funny because Austin, when I found out later at summer camp.
Austin would protect Jake from some of the bullies and fight off the bullies for Jake and Jake would [00:49:00] comfort Austin because he had a lot of homesickness and anxiety about separating from home and the two of them had a beautiful relationship. Austin grew to become a great baseball player actually got drafted by the San Francisco.
So to play baseball pro. Oh my gosh. And Jake became an English teacher and does a great job creating interest and excitement in kids about literature. And they're like, I remember one kid said, Mr. Elgin, I can't believe you got me interested in reading poems, but he has a wonderful way of reaching kids and sharing his love of language and words.
And so they're true to themselves and they grew up in that way. And now, you know, of course Jake. He feels very differently about himself, but it, you know, was not easy for him and he, you know, he paid a price. He really struggled.
Brenda: Oh my gosh. Yes. We're, we're going to have to have a conversation about that because I, I think what I see is a lot of those kids do end up really struggling with [00:50:00] substances because.
Um, not fitting into the sports culture, the party culture is very accepting. Doesn't care if you can throw a baseball or not, as long as you can bring some weed and some beer.
Janet: Right. You're in. That's
Brenda: right. So I think, I can't wait to dive into that book and we may, I'm thinking that might be a good book club book for our community.
So I will touch base with you on that, but, um, wow. What would be a last word of. of hope or inspiration that you would have for a parent listening, who's got a kid who's struggling, may or may not be in therapy, but they're just kind of pulling out their hair.
Janet: You know, I, I, I thought about that and I thought, what would I want to hear?
I think what I would want to say is that. Always remember, your kid wants to connect most of the time. I mean, again, the kid is looking for a connection. It's just, what is it that's keeping that? What is it, what is it in between that's keeping the two different parties? [00:51:00] Being connected in some way. It doesn't mean you're agreeing about things.
It doesn't mean you aren't arguing. It doesn't mean you agree with each other's choices. But how can you find that, that, that connection, that grace, that moment of grace right there where you realize that underneath all that stuff, your hearts are connected. And how can you do that? Maybe it's even just saying, you know, I want to be able to.
Feel that I want to believe that you want to stay connected. I know I do to you. And I don't know. I want to try and find that just something like that. But the idea that they really do want us and need us and they know it and You know, maybe that can lend some extension to the hope that sometimes you feel his weight, you know, but there is that, there is that under all the behavior stuff.
Brenda: Wow. Well, thank you. I think that's a great place to, to wrap this one up. And I just so appreciate your time and [00:52:00] all, all of the goodness you put into our kids and the, the level of love that you have for them is just amazing. And.
Janet: I thank you for Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you. I love our conversation and look forward to doing more.
Me too. Thank
Brenda: you.
Janet: You're so welcome.
Brenda: Okay, my friend, that is it for today. Remember, you can find all the guest information and resources we talked about in the show notes, and those are at brendazane. com forward slash podcast. We also have some playlists there that we created for you, like the top 10 episodes, coaching episodes, recovery stories, all the good stuff.
And if you haven't already, you may want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight, Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your child might be doing what they are, and importantly, it gives you tips on how to [00:53:00] cope and how to be more healthy through the rough times.
You can download that free from BrendaZane. com forward slash hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.