Learn From My Mistakes If Your Child Is Struggling With Substance Use, with Julie Merberg
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Julie Merberg, Founder, Recovery Works and Author of The Opposite of Addiction on Substack
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About this episode:
When Julie Merberg returned home from a work trip to find a scale and a pile of baggies on the living room table, she knew her son's involvement with substances was getting out of control. Foreshadowing her current work with Hopestream, Julie had already formed her own neighborhood support group of parents after her 16-year-old son began abusing Xanax and marijuana. As with so many of us, Julie and her husband were trying to change their son’s behavior with punishment and control, but found that it only made him more oppositional and defiant.
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Julie: [00:00:00]
He felt that he had this anxiety that we kept ignoring him when he told us about his anxiety. So he googled, what do I do for anxiety? And he found his way to Xanax. And then we got angry at him for using drugs.
Brenda: For solving the problem that he had.
Julie: Right. He solved his problem that I couldn't solve. And I got angry at him.
And he became oppositional. Who wouldn't become oppositional? Who wouldn't be angry at his parents for Yelling at him and punishing him when he solved a problem that they couldn't solve.
Brenda: You are listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances is in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me. Brenda Zain, your host and fellow mom to a child who struggled.
This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity.org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show.
The conversation you'll hear today is proof to me of a few things. One, when you meet people along this journey called life, you just never know where that connection might end up taking you. And, there most definitely can be silver linings that metastasize out of life's most difficult challenges. I recall a day in early 2020, during the earliest days of lockdown, when I was living mostly full time with my parents at our family's place on an island about an hour north of Seattle.
I had just opened the [00:02:00] doors of The Stream, our community for moms, and I was offering calls a few times a month, trying to connect with people who had signed up for my email list. And those were some really quiet calls because I had started with zero social media, zero email list, zero clue of what I was doing, making a podcast.
So to say that my community was tiny is an understatement. But this one day, a lovely woman joined the call and I was so excited. An actual mom who needed some help was on the zoom screen. It was amazing. So that is how I met Julie Murberg. And I am now thrilled to say that this mom of four boys, children's book publisher, author of the genius newsletter called the opposite of addiction and invitation to change coach and certified health and wellness coach is a member of our team at HopeStream community, working with our parents, doing what I did for her on that [00:03:00] morning back in 2020.
I think it's a beautiful example of what can happen when someone takes an experience. That is rife with trauma and fear and uncertainty, and turns it into a personal undertaking to help others through that same suffering. Julie lives in New York City. She facilitates Invitation to Change group sessions there and also online, and she does communication coaching in HopeStream Community.
She's a lifelong learner. Every single time I talk with Julie, she's in a new class or taking a new certification. She is someone who is wholly mission aligned with us. And I know that you are going to find her story and her insights invaluable. So let's get to it. Here is my conversation with Julie Murbert.
Enjoy.[00:04:00]
Welcome, Julie Merberg, to Hope Stream. This is kind of a full circle moment for us, isn't it? I just kind of was sitting here this morning, um, reflecting on when we first met. And what's funny is I met our place on the island that we come to sometimes in the summer. And this is where I was when I first talked to you.
So it really is like full circle. So welcome.
Julie: Thank you so much for having me, Brenda. You've been such a shining light for me, and I, too, flashback to that first moment I saw your face on screen when I was, um, probably at my own rock bottom. If, you know, even though that's not so much a thing, that was, I was in acute crisis when, um, when I showed up for that.
I think it was like a Saturday morning moms meeting, and Um, your face was the only other one on screen and I, I was so nervous about [00:05:00] everything, mostly about what was going on in my own life with my son. But I remember looking at you and saying, so, so what happens now? Are we the only ones here? And we were, and it turned out to be so fortuitous because I really felt like you held my hand and pulled me back off the ledge, um, just by sharing your own story and.
Um, and really just by example, by, you know, talking to some, to a mom who'd. Who'd been to the brink and lived to tell the tale and who had a son who did the same and survived and was then and now thriving. So thank you for that. And, and I'm happy that, um, you know, I can be seeing you again on, on the other end.
Or, you know, there's no end at a later and happier point in my own journey.
Brenda: Yes, it is. [00:06:00] It is fortuitous that I think we we connected and what I always tell people when like sometimes in those early days when I had just started the stream. You know, there were times when there was just, well, first of all, there's a lot of days when it was just me sitting on the zoom call with nobody.
Then there would be times when there would be one person. And I was so excited because I was like, Oh, there are other moms out there. It was good that we met and now I'm excited to have you. Helping the other moms in our community and dads really sharing your knowledge and what I love too is we both have a love of writing and words and I think your, um, your newsletter just so beautifully brings to life the experience, um, through your writing and that can be such a A place of solace, I think for parents to read, you know, listen to a podcast or to read somebody else's words [00:07:00] is really, really special.
So, um, your newsletter, The Opposite of Addiction is, is just beautiful. Um, and we have links to that in the show notes. So, okay, well. I think I would love to have you just give some background on your family situation. And then I want to get into, because you have, like you said, there's no end. And so I want to just dive into some of the wisdom that you gained along the way.
Um, but in order to understand that, let's just go back and have you share whatever you're comfortable with about. So tell us a little bit about your family and, and sort of what, what this experience brought to your
Julie: family. So initially I live in New York City. And when my son started struggling when he was about 16, I knew so many moms in the neighborhood whose sons were also struggling.
And I very quickly. [00:08:00] put together, um, like a coffee group where we would, um, just share stories, share resources, bounce ideas off one another because we all knew absolutely nothing and were terrified. But, you know, there was, there was comfort in, in knowing that other people were going through the same thing and we were all very resourceful.
So, you know, there was this compounding of resources. You know, one of us would Try out a rehab and then recommend it or not to the others, or someone would meet with an ed consultant and we would, we would share. So I felt like I always had community in real life because of that. And it was always these chance encounters.
I remember like walking out of my younger son's school and telling one friend, Oh, I started, um, I put Nathaniel into. Do an intensive outpatient program and we'll see how that goes. And another woman was walking in and overheard [00:09:00] me and tap my shoulder. And it was someone who I knew. In a very, um, minimal way we had kids in the same classes, but we, you know, she wasn't a friend, but she said, Oh my God, I just overheard and I hope you don't mind me interrupting, but my son is going through the same thing.
And then she and I made a coffee date and I saw another friend posting on social media that her son was struggling and I called her up and we had tea together and cried. And one night I had, um, I used to go downstairs to walk my dog and cry because I didn't want my other children to see me coming undone.
I have four sons and my second oldest son is the one who struggles. And so one night I was standing in front of my building, just sobbing. And a neighbor, a newish neighbor pulled up in a taxi and got out, this [00:10:00] couple who I knew from our building, but they had just moved in. And we really, we didn't know each other other than, you know, to say hi when we passed in the street and they said hi to me and, you know, Hey, how are you?
And I just started sobbing and told them what was going on. I said, I'm a mess. My, my son. is abusing drugs. I don't, I don't know what's going on. I'm so scared. And they hugged me and told me their son was 11 months sober and that everything would be okay. I know. And it was just this moment. And then I stepped back and I realized like, she's all made up and wearing jewelry and he's wearing a tie.
And I always would see him in like bike shorts. And I, and I said, where are you coming from? And they were coming home from their daughter's wedding and they stood there in the street. Like with me, you know, snotting them up and crying on them and just helping me. And, and I feel like [00:11:00] that's been part of the story, all of those connections and those that like instant intimacy with someone.
Who has the same, you know, fear in her voice or that, you know, is just kind of living with the weight of the unknown all the time, you just instantly connect. So I, I wanted to mention that as a theme and then, um, step back and I'm going to go further back in time than our first meeting, which was certainly a low point, but the story started before then just to kind of.
Give context in 10th grade when Nathaniel was 15 years old, I felt like things changed. He had always been like. An incredibly compliant, [00:12:00] easygoing, high achieving kid, always did really, really well in school. I always had, you know, these glowing reports from his teachers. Everybody wanted him in his class.
All the kids wanted him at their birthday parties. They wanted to be sitting next to him. He was that kid. And he started smoking very occasionally, I would say, um, in ninth grade. I didn't, I wasn't concerned. I, we live in New York City, kids smoke in high school, I had an older son who would smoke recreationally, and it never got out of hand, so I wasn't really too panicked until, um, the second part of his, kind of the middle of his sophomore year, things got Things escalated.
And he was more than just stoned. He was definitely using something else. I didn't know what. I was, I was really naive. [00:13:00] Um, and, and I also don't use anything. I don't drink. I never smoked. I, substance makes me feel um, unpleasant. So it was never part of my life. So this was something I completely couldn't relate to.
And, and I wasn't any of the things that I learned to be. I wasn't compassionate. I wasn't curious. I was just angry and confused and scared. And, you know, I, all of the advice that I give the moms in my groups is advice that I so wish I had had. Um, earlier in time. So I didn't really know what to do. I punished, you know, I would like take away his phone.
We took away his allowance and he started dealing. He was very clever and quickly figured out, you know, I don't need allowance. I can just find a wholesaler and buy stuff really cheap. I mean, he was so [00:14:00] entrepreneurial. Right. And I went away on a business trip, which was a pretty rare occurrence for me. I mostly worked from home, you know, locally.
Um, but I had an overseas client and I had like a 10 day trip and I, it was unprecedented. And when I came home, there was a scale and baggies on the coffee table. I
Brenda: was like, what the hell happened while
Julie: I was gone? Like the wheels have completely come off the wagon. He's like launched a drug empire while I was in Japan.
I couldn't figure out. It was like someone had swapped my house and family for a whole new situation. And that, at that, I mean, he'd been angry. He'd been punching holes in walls. He'd been, he'd become increasingly oppositional and more so every time we came up with a new, you know, okay, well now you have a [00:15:00] curfew and now you're going to be grounded and.
Every time we made a new rule, he would just, you know, knock it over and behave in a more, um, chaotic and outrageous way. And he was in therapy, working with a therapist who felt that his weed smoking wasn't a problem and kept telling my husband and me that we should just... Really try to deescalate the tension in the house and don't make a big deal about the smoking and my husband I kept saying no No, we really think this is problematic.
You know, we're not uptight. My husband will drink Yeah, no, I I don't judge Responsible substance use this was something else and this therapist was really counterproductive for us because he kind of enabled [00:16:00] the situation. He kept insisting this was totally fine when it wasn't. And finally, we parted ways with him.
We said, you know what? We really think substance is at the heart of of most of our problems. It might, you know, it's very hard to suss out like what's cause, what's effect, what is going on, but substance is problematic and you're not treating it that way. So we wanted him to work with the drug counselor and he did and the drug counselor very quickly said, this isn't working.
You know, I'm testing him. His THC levels were going up instead of down and Nathaniel, to his credit, he's taking it. was very willing to go to inpatient rehab. And, and I look back at that now, and I see that even at 16, he was making a very wise and mature decision, and that was his first step toward recovery.
Brenda: That's amazing. [00:17:00]
Julie: Right? And it was a very big deal, and I talked to a lot of parents who have to control or even, um, have, you know, legal interference to get their kids or, you know, people have their kids taken away, you know, unwillingly and he really wanted the help. I appreciated it then. I have so much respect for it now for the maturity and wisdom of that decision.
Yeah. And he. And he got a lot out of it. He, I, again, I didn't really know what to do and there weren't a lot of options for kids under 18. That remains a problem. There are a limited number of beds. And I just made a ton of phone calls and did a lot of research and I had a friend who was Recovery, who said, Oh, send him to Hazleton Betty Ford in Minnesota.
They had an adolescent facility and they took my [00:18:00] insurance and they were certainly a well respected name and we sent him there and, and he had a very positive experience. He learned a lot and just. Kind of having him detoxed and clear headed and able to communicate with us was incredibly helpful and, um, and he also had been heavily using benzos before going in.
He never really used benzos again after that. He said it was so, the detoxing and the withdrawal was so painful and he, he, again, you know, very mature for 16 years old. He recognized. How badly that drug interacted with his brain and his body. And he, he probably took like one or two pills subsequently, but, you know, over the course of four years, that was a, that was a major change.
So I know, and I mentioned this because I know a lot of [00:19:00] people feel like they go into treatment after treatment until they find the one that works. That's not the way it is, it's that every single step they take, and every form of treatment, and every therapist, and every meeting, and every outpatient, and everything they do kind of adds up as part of the journey, and it's not just the laugh.
thing that worked. It's not like, you know, when you're unscrewing the lid on the spaghetti sauce jar, it's not like the last person was the strongest person who gets to everybody loosen the lid a little bit. And, and every treatment helped in some way. And certainly that that first treatment was very major for him.
It's also a 12 step approach, which I now know, black and white, all or nothing, sober or failing, it's not appropriate for a 16 year old. I, I don't believe that they're developmentally [00:20:00] capable of sobriety at that age. Now, I kind of warn parents 16 are going into treatment, like, don't expect your kid to come out.
Um, Remain sober, like that's wishful and actually harmful thinking because we're setting them up for failure.
Brenda: Hi, I'm taking a quick break to let you know some exciting news. There are now two private online communities for supporting you through this experience with your child or children. The stream community for those who identify as moms and the woods for guys who identify as dads. Of course, this includes step parents and anyone who is caring for a young person who struggles with substance use and mental health.
The stream and the woods exist completely outside of all social media, so you never have to worry about confidentiality. And they're [00:21:00] also ad free. So when you're there, you'll be able to focus on learning the latest evidence based approaches to helping people change their relationship with drugs and alcohol.
In both communities, we have a positive focus without triggering content or conversations. And we hope you learn to be an active participant in helping your child move towards healthier choices. You'll also experience the relief of just being able to be real, connect with other parents who know fully what you're going through and have battle tested mentors alongside.
You can check out both the stream and the woods for free before committing, so there's no risk. Go to hope stream community. org to get all the details and become a member. Okay, let's get back to the show.
And it is tricky to walk that line of, you know, [00:22:00] what are our expectations coming out of treatment for a teenager? You know, we talk about all the time, there's no one size fits all. So what, what worked in your family might not have worked in mine and what worked in mine might not have, well, not a lot worked in mine for a long time, but you know, it's just one of those things that you have to take.
Individually and really look at your family, how it works, the dynamics and all of that to come up with something that's going to work for you and for your child. And one thing I wanted to just call out that I think is really important in what you said is your gut told you that The substances were the problem, and even though you were getting advice from somebody with a lot of letters behind their name, you knew in your gut what was, what was going on, and I think that's important because I hear all the time from parents, like, Oh, I wish I would have trusted my gut.
I wish I would have, I wish I would have acted on [00:23:00] that. Little twinge when I was feeling like no, I actually know my kids So I just want to call that out because it's really important to do both seek professional advice and Listen to your gut so it's not one or the other but anyway, so I wanted to highlight that So he goes to treatment at Hazleton comes back doing okay after that It
Julie: was okay.
He came out. It was the end of the school year and we went away for the whole summer by design. We always do, but we also knew it was really important this summer for him to not be in the city and not fall back into those routines. But he still, he pretty quickly started smoking weed again. Um, Even though it was, we kept him out of the city and access wasn't easy.
He would have friends come to visit us. He, he worked it [00:24:00] out and we began to worry about what it would look like when we went back to school for what would have been the fall of his junior year. And when that happened. Within a month, we all knew, including Nathaniel, again, very wise that this wasn't working out and he was scared because not only was he using, but he was dealing and, um, and that's not like safe and carefree kind of sidekick, you know, I think he was, yeah, yes, your face says it all.
Yes. He, um, right. You know, and he, he likes making money. He liked being able to buy his drugs. He certainly had like, you know, piles of crumpled up bills. Like I knew what was going on. We kept confronting him. We, you know, we were very clear about not wanting him to do that and about worrying about him. And, um, and I [00:25:00] think that in his moments of clarity.
He didn't want to feel that way either. You know, he didn't like worrying that someone was going to like pull a knife on him every time he left the house. And, and we live in a very nice neighborhood. So it's not, this is not a function of his environment. This wasn't a function of the things that he was doing, his behaviors and the people he was, um, mixing with.
And again, he said to me, I need to go back to rehab. And he's, he said, everyone, when I'm in rehab, everybody is working to do their best. And I can too, but here I can't, you know, again, 16 years old, like incredibly wise. So of course we brought him right back. We pulled him out of school. And this time I knew he couldn't come back to school.
So I use the time while he was away and safe [00:26:00] and in treatment to do a lot of research and just get the lay of the land of. You know, what is wilderness and what is therapeutic boarding? I really didn't know. I, I had to investigate and I was too cheap and jaded to hire an ed consultant. I just felt like, what kind of scam is that?
People charge you 10, 000 to tell you what. 120, 000 a year program to send your kid to, like, that was not going to happen for me. I did. However, I set up just like a preliminary consultation. I paid 500 to talk to an ed consultant to just give me enough of kind of the broad strokes of what. What does the field look like, you know, explain where I should be looking.
I know my kid needs aftercare. I know he can't live at [00:27:00] home. I know he can't go back to school. Talk to me about my options. And she started explaining what happens in wilderness therapy and what therapeutic boarding schools look like. And then she mentioned just kind of off the cuff, this out of the box program in Israel.
That she had had a lot of success with and, um, and where the kids have a lot of freedom and they really learn to make healthy choices. And because I only paid the 500, you know, getting to know you fee, she didn't give me the name, but it took me 30 seconds to find the program and it's called Free Spirit Experience.
And I called up the director who happened to be coming to New York. I met with him that week. I knew, again, you talk about the mama gut, I knew this was exactly the right program. I told my husband about it. He said, it sounds perfect. Nathaniel had always wanted to go to Israel [00:28:00] and. It really wasn't hard to convince him at all.
We called him at Hazelden. I sent him a link. I set up a meeting, um, between him and the director when he came back to the city and he was on a plane five days later. And that was hugely transformative for him. He, um, it was not a recovery based program, but he did, on his own, maintain his sobriety there for something like 70 days.
Um... And then at some point he, like, figured out how to, like, get a weed delivery on an app, but it wasn't a problem there, you know, so it was very different attitude, and, and their approach is much more aligned with the ITC, and, um, there was no judgment, there was a conversation about, like, what's going on, why did you feel like you needed to use, and He came home earlier than he [00:29:00] was supposed to due to covid.
He came home after five months. He should have been there a little bit longer. Um, but the program still had such an enormous impact on him. And what it did for us was untangle the opposition. It helped him to cope with his anxiety, which was the underlying thing that hadn't been apparent to any of us, not his parents, not his therapist, not his doctor, none of his teachers.
Nathaniel had sort of an invisible anxiety that he felt acutely, but none of us really saw or understood, and it was untreated until he treated it himself. And, uh, The dynamic that we were able to untangle was that he felt that he had this anxiety that we kept ignoring him when he told us about his anxiety.
So he Googled, what do I do for anxiety? And he found his way to Xanax. [00:30:00] And then we got angry at him for using drugs.
Brenda: For solving the problem that he had. Right. He solved his
Julie: problem that I couldn't solve and I got angry at him and he became oppositional. Who wouldn't become oppositional? Who wouldn't be angry at his parents for yelling at him and punishing him when he solved a problem that they couldn't solve?
So, Chamir, the therapeutic director at Free Spirit, he got it. He was the first person who understood exactly what had gone on. And. So when he came home, you know, it was like this weight had been lifted because we understood each other and I just felt so much compassion because I realized how badly I had screwed up and Tamir also told me when I was over there, when we, we came for like a family program, we went camping in the desert and had these kind of facilitated [00:31:00] conversations and he privately said to me, Nathaniel's Not a rules and repercussion kid.
You're going to get nowhere if he comes home and you make a bunch of rules. You're going to be right back where you started. It's my job to teach him how to make better choices, and it's your job to trust that he's going to make better choices. And so the next day, I basically vocalized the conversation that Tamir had scripted for me and told Nathaniel, I trusted him, I was so proud of him, he'd made so many good choices, choosing to go into treatment, choosing to do whatever.
Not misuse drugs while he was away and that I, he was ready to trust him and then I knew he would make mistakes and that was okay. And that I would make mistakes too. And our whole relationship changed, like completely, [00:32:00] completely transformed. And at the same time I was, I was reading Beyond Addiction, I had found my way to the Center for Motivation and Change and I was kind of educating myself and the invitation to change, which was in total alignment with what Um, the approach that they used in Israel where, you know, there was no kind of black and white and you're an addict, you're not an addict, you're sober, you're, you're using.
There was none of, there was just so much more nuance, um, and, and subtlety and, and really just sort of an unconditional love, like that was their approach and that was For me, you know, very organic, like you're a mom, of course you love your kid unconditionally. And so there were, um, you know, there were many, more than hiccups there, you know, it was, it continued to be a roller coaster ride, but [00:33:00] we were reconnected.
So it was less scary because of that. And, and in a way it was a blessing that he came home during COVID because we moved upstate. We have a house upstate in the middle of nowhere. And we were able to kind of shield him from all of that, shield him or keep him far, far away from all of the, the stuff, the temptation, the, the dealers, the easy access in the city and, and things went pretty well up until.
That week when I first connected with you when everything blew up. Yeah at that point He just he relapsed and hard. He ran away
Brenda: I think it's so common and what parents don't realize Going into this is that that is probably more common than Uncommon that a young person needs [00:34:00] multiple tries at this and they don't go into a place in for 30 days and get fixed, you know, quote unquote fixed Which I had absolutely no idea going into this I just figured well, they go to treatment and they they fix them don't they and then you get
Julie: that's the way it works
Brenda: Right, right So I'm wondering what was going on with The, the family dynamic, because as we know, this is a whole family thing, and it sounds like you really reconnected.
What, what was going on with the rest of the family? You know, you have three other kids, you have a husband, like you're navigating COVID. How was all of that playing out as you're, as you are, as the mom, like, starting to realize, Oh, this is a whole thing. This is not just going to be a 30 day thing that we go and fix.
Julie: We did have a honeymoon period when he first came home. We had, it was just [00:35:00] so ironic, you know, as the world was Going into lockdown and hoarding toilet paper, we were like, also happy to be back together. My oldest had been away at college, Nathaniel had been in Israel, and my two little ones, um, had been home with us.
And they were all, the brothers were so happy to be back together. I, being a And, you know, a very handsy mom was so happy to have all my kids in one place under one roof and my husband, it was really like kind of nice for us. We kind of dug in and had a, had a good long ride of it. And it wasn't until kind of late fall, I think it was around November.
Where he just had enough of being cooped up with his family and I think, you know, he needed to relapse them and he ran away. He got somebody to come pick him [00:36:00] up late at night at her place upstate and drive him into the city and he was. He was staying, I don't even know where, he was dealing drugs. It was terrifying.
He lied to me and told me that he wanted, he was going to go stay with a sober friend. That he wanted to get sober and was going to go stay with a sober friend. Which seemed like a little suspicious to me. Um, and remember, this was during COVID and all the kids were doing Zoom school. And I thought, okay, as long as you go to school.
Pretty quickly realized he hadn't gone to any of his classes and he was not at all staying with a sober friend and something really awful was going on. But also this was pre vaccine. My husband was sort of high risk and we didn't know what his exposure had been. So I kept trying to coordinate with him.
Like, you know, I'm concerned. I want to come pick you up. Can you just, can you isolate for a couple of [00:37:00] days and then I'll come get you? And he. You know, masterfully kept stringing me along and telling me more lies. And then I think I showed up and met with you to say that we had decided that as a family, we were going to have our own kind of loving intervention, just all show up and tell him that we were worried and that we wanted him to come back upstate.
And again, it felt like that was what we had to do. But I had no plan B, you know, I didn't know what we were going to do if he didn't agree. So that was really, really scary. And I didn't even know if he was going to show up for this meeting. He had been in touch with me and I told him I wanted to take him out for dinner or order in dinner.
Nobody was going out and to meet at the apartment. So he thought he was just coming to meet me. [00:38:00] And he walked in and the whole family was there and, and I, I knew instantly that it would be fine. Hmm. It sounds so corny, but you could just see the love in his eyes and, and the connection was still there. He couldn't let his brothers down.
I don't, I know it wasn't for me and it wasn't for my husband. It was really for his brothers. And he agreed to come back upstate and we traveled a bit. We tried to break things up, you know, clearly everybody was going a little bonkers and he went back into like a zoom intensive outpatient. After that, he worked with.
recovery coach after that. It was difficult. You know, it was difficult, but I did feel like if I stepped back, I [00:39:00] could see forward motion. At one point he said to me, Mom, I know I need to be home. I know I need the accountability. I know all of my friends who are in college are drinking all the time and that environment would be terrible for me.
And, you know, I was so happy to know that he felt good. And now he's doing great. He, um, he on his own started smoking less and less. He started working with a therapist who he loves and really, you know, kind of doing the hard work. And also he's 20, you know, he's more mature. He has, his brain is different than it was when he was 16 and 18.
And he's now embracing sobriety. And he even put together a group of teenagers. and is trying to help them [00:40:00] in, you know, some form of harm reduction or take their own early steps toward recovery.
Brenda: Amazing. Amazing. Are there any practices or tools that you had for yourself that you either recommend the groups that you lead or other parents, um, because this like, you know, it's a lot and it, it requires a lot of resilience, tenacity, um, just it's exhausting.
So I'm wondering what you were doing for yourself to, to stand through it all. That's a good
Julie: question. Um, well, first of all, being in the groups myself, even though I run them, it's, it's very cathartic. Um, having, you know, having that community, I, I always think of it as we're all like carrying around this enormous weight.
And then when we get into that room together, we can all put it down [00:41:00] and, and breathe and unload and talk, kind of release our shame. And our guilt and all the stuff that we're beating ourselves up for and our fear and just kind of Let it all out and come out of that communion lighter and more grounded.
Um, so that's one thing. And, and I've also embraced self care in a way that I never thought I would have used to think it was for sissies. Like if somebody would mock people who talked about needing self care. Um, you know, are you kidding
Brenda: me?
Julie: I've got four kids. I work full time. You're going to take a nap?
But I'm, I'm a big believer in for me, that's getting nature whenever I can. I exercise a lot. I do yoga. I see friends. for me, just always saying yes [00:42:00] to the lunch or the coffee or the dinner or the walk along the river or whatever it is, um, I need that. I need that connection.
Brenda: Even if self care, like if you're listening and you're like, yeah, I'm with Julie, that's self care thing.
That's for sissies. Like that's for the, it's for the weak, the weak moms. It's actually. It's a very strategic move as well because when you take care of yourself, it signals to the whole family. Mom is okay. Mom is still holding it together because they do all look to to us to see how are we doing? How is the family doing?
That's
Julie: such a good way of describing it, Brenda. We are that litmus test. Does mom look like a mess?
Brenda: Right? Well, you know, you think if you were on a plane and you're looking at the pilot That's, that's sort of what I think of, and if your pilot hasn't slept for three days, is constantly [00:43:00] crying, is, you know, walking around, just a complete mess, like that doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the fact that Things are going to be okay.
Say yes to the lunch or say yes to the walk because we often do have people in our lives who are observing us imploding as the parent and they want to help and so they do offer things like that and it's so easy to just say no, I can't, I'm busy, I'm too stressed out and whatever. And it's usually those people are the ones that can handle it if you show up with your mascara all over your face or whatever.
And they're like, it's okay. Let's just go for the walk. So saying yes to those things. Just as an experiment, just say, okay, I'm just going to say yes to the next person who offers some help to me, I think is, is really important because it doesn't come naturally, especially I've noticed a lot of [00:44:00] the people that we work with tend to be the perfectionist, the overachiever, You know, the very high functioning, highly capable person who we feel like we always have to have it together all the time.
That's just the, the. DNA of the, the folks that I end up working with. And so even when your life's not a mess, it's hard to, to rest or to take time for yourself.
Julie: Also for me, I was journaling. I was always journaling through, throughout, um, I. It was really, um, important for me, really cathartic and now writing the newsletter is kind of the way that I process that, having a tiny bit of distance, but you know, I'm still in it very much so, and being able to [00:45:00] kind of Analyze and recreate the narrative and, and hone in on the things that were important and the things that I want other moms to know has been so powerful and healing for me.
So I do, I write my newsletter for other parents, but I also write it for myself.
Brenda: Mm. Yeah, I think writing is one of those underrated tools that if you don't know what to do, like if you're just in that paralysis of fear or indecision, just start writing and you'll be amazed at what will come out. I mean, you might end up like Julie with a newsletter, right?
You just never know, but getting it Like physically out of your body and your brain is super powerful. So I'm glad you. I'm glad you mentioned that. Um, [00:46:00] before I let you go, I'd love to know, just in general, how do you think you're different today as a person, um, as a result of this
Julie: experience? How am I different?
I'm different in so many ways. I feel like I grew up in a very normal family, household, lifestyle. My parents have been married for 60 years. So I was a really good student. I was a goody goody, my brother and sister, similarly, you know, high achieving, well behaved, um, there were no ripples really, you know, we all went to good colleges, we all are married with children and having a child who struggles with substance was my first real kind of out of the box, I don't know what the hell to do kind of experience.
[00:47:00] And really finding my way to the Center for Motivation and Change, uh, was life changing for me and, you know, and to Beyond Addiction and then the Invitation to Change and all the training that I've done subsequently, I am, I am proud to be a part of it. Biggest way, it was really about shedding judgment, you know, my, my old life, like worked out the way it did by sheer luck, you know, it just did.
Things were like pretty easy until they weren't and letting go of judgment and just being open to different experiences and having. Compassion for the way people come into this world and the way they're living their lives, all of that. Um, I just, I look at people and relationships. And the whole world with different eyes now, and I remember my, my youngest son at one [00:48:00] point said to me, you know, really when we were like in the thick of it, maybe when Nathaniel was in his first treatment, he said to me, I hate that we had to go through this, but I think it's brought us so much closer and I have so much more empathy for people and he was 11.
And he said this. And I do feel like, you know, we are a house where we talk about everything. Nothing is spoken about and whispers. And the connections that I have not only with Nathaniel and my husband and my other children, but also with my friends, I would say that the, the Complete lack of judgment, the, you know, letting go of judging others and feeling much more connected to people are the two, the most dramatic ways that I've changed by this experience.
Brenda: Wow. Well, I can't think of two better gifts to receive [00:49:00] from a really painful experience. And it's also, I always like to ask that because when you're in it, you're not thinking, Oh, Someday, this is gonna be a really big blessing in my life, right? You're like, what the heck? This is not fair. I don't, I didn't do anything to deserve this.
Why can't my family just be normal like all the other families I see? So if you're, you know, feet are in the fire in the moment, I'd just like to put that out there and it might seem like Um, so not possible, but I would say I had similar, you know, benefits, um, silver linings coming out of this and it does trickle down.
So I think our kids benefit from this, our other kids benefit from seeing this. Um, it just, it also makes them so much more compassionate, like you said, and think of the ripple [00:50:00] effect that that has on the world. So. Without help, the negative ripple effect and how many people get hurt and damaged by somebody who's using substances, because it is not just them, it is a whole lot of people.
And similarly, with help and with healing, think of the positive ripple effect that can happen. And we see that. Every single day, right? In the stream, in the woods, we see parents who the light bulb goes on, and it's like, Oh, I could try that. Or, Oh, I'm going to say this instead. Or, Oh, I'm going to pause before I react out of emotion.
And those, that starts the ripple effect. And so it's just so important, I think, for people to realize the pernicious effects of this. are massive and also the beneficial effects are are equally massive [00:51:00] so I'm just so thankful for you to tell your story. I'm going to link out to your newsletter so people can get that because it is really like a balm in reading your words because it's it's informative and instructive but also just So, um, you could just feel the love coming through your words.
So, thank you for doing that and thank you for helping us out in HopeStream community and helping coach our moms and our dads and, uh, I just am so grateful.
Julie: Thank you for all that you do and for welcoming me onto your show, which I listen to. Loyally since the, the very first episode, . So I, I'm so happy to be here and, um, you know, and thanks for shining the light.
Absolutely.
Brenda: Okay, my friend. That is it for today. Remember, you can find all the guest information and resources we talked about in the show notes, and those are at [00:52:00] brenda zane.com/podcast. We also have some playlists there that we created for you, like the top 10 episodes, coaching episodes, recovery stories, all the good stuff.
And if you haven't already, you may want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight, Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your child might be doing what they are, and importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through the rough times.
You can download that free from BrendaZane.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.