The Other Side of Addiction: A Compilation of Guests Who Made it Out
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guests: Jeremy Melloul, Jo Collette, Mark Pepper, Adam Sud, Rebekah Mutch, Mark LaPalme
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About this episode:
September is National Recovery Month! To celebrate, I’m sharing a curated collection of some of my favorite interview clips with people in recovery. All of these guests have been to the darkest places – jail, suicide attempts, overdoses. And yet, all have completely changed their lives, with several now working to help others in the field of recovery.
Episode resources:
Guests from this episode and their original episode:
Adam Sud - episode 177
Jeremy Melloul - episode 90 & 133
Mark LaPalme - episode 128
Mark Pepper - episode 76
Rebekah Mutch - episode 113
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Enzo
You've got to approach it like, Hey, listen, I know I've been a little bit rigid with you or whatever the situation may be, but I'm trying to do something different. Acknowledge it, acknowledge it, Don't just try, because this is the thing that they try and. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'd probably have been a little bit crazy. Now I'm going to go and just invite my kid to dinner.
Well, what do you think the kid is going to think when you go and invite him dinner? Do you think he's going to rely on his information that he has from the past, or do you think he's going to understand in his mind right away that, oh, he's invited me to dinner. Maybe he wants to completely make a change of how he approaches our relationship.
The second option is probably not what the kid's going to think, and he has no reason to think that.
00;00;49;18
Brenda
You're listening to Hope's dream. The place for those parenting teens and young adults who are misusing drugs and alcohol in a treatment program or working their way toward recovery. It's your private space to learn and to gain encouragement and understanding for me. Your host friend is saying I'm fellow parent to a child who struggled, and I'm so glad you're here to learn more about all the resources available to you besides a podcast.
Please head over to Hopestreamcommunity.org.
Well, it only took 184 episodes, but I finally got a very important guest on the show, My son Enzo. As part of our celebration of National Recovery Month 2023, which is September. I couldn't think of a better or more relevant guest to have. So I asked my incredibly busy and insightful son if he would join me for a conversation on Hope Stream and he graciously agreed.
This conversation was an interesting one because I usually don't know my guests so intimately, and I certainly haven't gone through the hell with them like I did with this one. So it was a little uncomfortable. And even at times I was a bit unsure of myself. I had to do some mental gymnastics to put myself in the role of podcast host versus mom and approach Enzo with the same curiosity I do for all my guests.
If you're curious about what goes on in the head of a young person who struggles with substances, anger, risky behavior, and defiance, you will want to listen closely to this conversation. Because of Enzo is anything. He's articulate and insightful and does not hold back sharing what was going on in his life. He talks about the reason he shifted to a new friend group when he was 15 and the relief he got from those new people in his life.
00;02;42;02
Brenda
He shares his thoughts about consequences of his actions and decisions, and you'll hear about our family dynamics during the chaotic years. You'll also hear how he lived with a lot of fear and a huge amount of commitment to this high risk lifestyle. He'll share some commonalities he sees in the adolescent boys he now works with and his approach to connecting with them in a very real way.
I won't delay getting into this any longer. Please enjoy this incredibly special conversation with my son, Enzo. Narcissism.
Well, hello, my son.
00;03;24;22
Enzo
Hi.
00;03;26;04
Brenda
I was telling somebody the other day that it took me longer to get you on the podcast than Dr. Government. I don't know what that says.
00;03;36;24
Enzo
Yeah, I don't know. He's certainly probably busier than me.
00;03;43;21
Brenda
Well, we did, to be fair, we did record back in 2020 when I first started doing this. Yeah, I'm kind of glad that that didn't work out, which it didn't work out for several reasons, but I have definitely improved my technique a little bit since then. So I think this is going to be a more fruitful conversation for parents.
It's awesome to have you here today. And you know, I wanted to do a focus on recovery stories for Recovery month and I can't think of a better story than yours. Obviously, your mother, I'm pretty happy about it, but I think it's got a lot of elements that that our listeners can learn from. Why don't you tell us a little bit about life today?
I always just like to start in the present and get people grounded in just a little. You don't have to go into a ton of detail, but you know, what do you do? What does life look like? Maybe a typical day to day in the life of Enzo. And then we'll do a little bit of rewinding.
00;04;47;10
Enzo
Yeah. So it kind of depends on, you know, work and what I got going on with that, because some months are a lot busier than others, you know, depending on what's going on at the house and everything. But, you know, on a typical day, I'll wake, make a coffee right off the bat and then read a book. Honestly, I love to read in the morning.
Just take it easy and then make some breakfast usually after that. And then either I'll get schoolwork done or or I'll go in and go to the gym. Usually it's been something that I've worked into my daily routine. Aside from that, you know, if it's a work month, if it's like a month where I'm just working like crazy, then I pretty much spend zero time at the house, at my my house.
I just wake up, go straight to work, and then spend all day with the boys there.
00;05;43;23
Brenda
Talk a little bit about the kind of work you're doing.
00;05;47;16
Enzo
Yeah. So I'm working at a residential treatment center, so my shift is usually the whole day. So 9 a.m. until 11 p.m. at the earliest, usually like 12:12 a.m.. I mean, I wake the kids, take them on and, you know, have them clean out the kitchen, you know, the breakfast medication administration. Then do a group and then go and have a bunch of kids, go do different activities After that, come back, make sure everybody eats lunch, have them all clean up the kitchen, continue on with either another activity throughout the rest of the day, or maybe just let them relax.
But always having them clean, having them, you know, do a group, talk about what's going on for the day, what's going on with them. And then sometimes in the afternoon we have another group where we go over the day and over the last previous days. So I find a lot of fulfillment. And in doing that.
00;06;51;29
Brenda
And this is with adolescent boys, right? So adolescent boys who primarily have been through wilderness therapy and then are coming to a residential treatment center because they are not ready to come home. Is that is that fair to say?
00;07;06;21
Enzo
Yeah, Yeah, definitely. So they get reset in the wilderness pretty much, or they're the adventure therapies that they go through. And then they basically we try and reintegrate them in a healthy way to set them on the right path before they head home. Hopefully send them home with some good skills, good habits, you know, a schedule routine.
00;07;29;14
Brenda
Maybe a different mindset.
00;07;31;10
Enzo
Yeah, different mindset. Hopefully. Most of the time, you know, they at the minimum, they leave with some kind of therapeutic progress, you know, whether it be with their family or with their thinking habits or, you know, maybe they've found that they love to go to the gym or they love to skateboard all the time, or whatever it may be.
00;07;50;05
Brenda
That's good's that gives us a good idea. And you're also going to school. You're going to college and studying psychology. And and so you've got a lot on your plate. I still and I don't know about you, but I still have to sort of pinch myself sometimes when we have these conversations just day to day about what you're doing and what I'm doing.
And I just am sometimes in disbelief about the contrast from, let's call it eight years ago or so, you know, anywhere in the last, I don't know, eight or so years in my wildest dreams, I would have never expected that we would be having a conversation like this because life was pretty chaotic, to say the least. I'm trying to think of another adjective that would describe it, but there are chaotic.
00;08;40;26
Enzo
Chaotic is a good one. Yeah.
00;08;43;05
Brenda
And there's a couple of different directions. I thought about going with this because it's a little hard because being your mom, I think I know too much. So I'm trying to pretend like I don't know you. Yeah, which is a little strange since I gave her to you. But, you know, there are a couple of different directions. I thought about going, and I think in.
00;09;00;28
Brenda
In my mind, it's a little like COVID. It's like pre and post. So for me, I tend to categorize things with us or with our family in like pre overdose and coming into your different lifestyle now and then post. Yeah. Do you think about stuff like that? I'm just curious because that's how I think about it. But I don't know if you do.
00;09;23;27
Enzo
Yeah, I think about it from like probably pre 15 to like after 15 and then between 15 and my overdose is the next gap And then from there to now is kind of like the next phase or maybe from there to California to now, you know.
00;09;42;26
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah. There's like, there's, like a little no man's land in there. A period of.
00;09;48;07
Enzo
Yeah.
00;09;49;02
Brenda
Five or six years where it was like, I don't know, we landed on Mars or something and, and now we're back, which is a complete miracle, by the way, as you know that you are living walking miracle. But why don't we kind of rewind to a time whenever you want to kind of launch into things where you remember your life sort of taking a turn in a direction that it hadn't been going before.
00;10;16;27
Enzo
Yeah, I'd say it's got to be when I was 15, that was when it went, you know, because before I was 15, I was afraid to get caught doing something or I was like, afraid to just go off the grid and do whatever I wanted. But after 15, it kind of became easier and easier for me to just go and do it, whatever it was and not really feel too guilty about it or to fearful about the consequence.
So that would probably be the biggest transition, like the most notable transition that I can remember. After that, it was kind of just a free for all from me after 15.
00;10;58;08
Brenda
Yeah. Do you remember what might have made that shift in your mind? Like. Was it was it stuff that happened in our family? Because obviously a lot of stuff happened in our family. We went through a divorce, your dad and I and I didn't probably handle that the best, but also was there something like what? What do you think in your mind was a shift that made you start to care less about kind of going going off the grid?
00;11;27;15
Enzo
Yeah, it was the friends that I had, the friends that I'd made. You know, it's a lot harder to break a rule and completely disregard the consequence when all your friends, you know, fear their parents and they fear the consequence. And so they, you know, they'll succumb quickly to a consequence imposed by their parents. But when you're surrounded with people that they don't care what the consequences are, their parents don't even care really what what their kid is doing.
It makes it far easier to just loop in with them and just kind of ride the wave with them. You know, once you get over that first thing where like, I remember the like one notable thing was like skipping school. Like I used to skip school and turn in a fake note to excuse my own absence. And eventually I got caught doing that.
And so I just said, you know, I'm just going to do it anyway. And that never what are you going to skip school in the first place? If my friends weren't skipping school with me, you know, because before the previous friends that I had, they were not even skipping school at all. Right. But they're now skipping school. And then I'm figuring out how to make it work and how to get away with it.
But then I get caught so often that I'm like, okay, you know, whatever. I'm just going to do it. And don't even worry about, you know, exceeding the absence or, you know, telling a lie to my parents about how I'm going to, you know, how actually I was in school, but the teacher didn't get me or whatever it was.
00;12;54;22
Enzo
So probably it's got to be the friends. It's got to be the friends. It went from first. Like the priority is, oh, school homework. And then now it's like, what do I want to do? You know, again in the morning I can either go to school or and hear about how my teacher is upset with me about my homework.
Or I can go and hang out with my friends and get high and have fun and do whatever we do and then not experience consequence. Really. So it was an enormous relief and it kind of like once I got the hang of accepting like that was reality and it was like a boost, like it boosted the, the commitment that I had to the new lifestyle because of how much of a relief it was.
00;13;42;23
Brenda
Yeah. And, and you were very committed. That's why I think when you when you commit to something you're very committed to it and it eventually there were obviously some consequences at home. Things were not great. I remember that period of time doing a lot of yelling. It's a little ironic that I do what I do today because I had none of the tools that I have today and that I share with parents.
So I kind of was the textbook book don't like if you have the do and the don't, the before and the after, I was the textbook, don't yelling, screaming, shaming, you know, trying to take away everything I could find to take away because I figured that would make you, you know, better or change or whatever. What do you remember about us during that time?
And your dad? They were divorced. So you were with Daddy sometimes. Or with me? Sometimes. What do you remember about kind of our relationships and that how that impacted you?
00;14;46;17
Enzo
I mean, obviously there was a lot of fear because I'm like, I'm going to get yelled at or something is going to happen when I get home. So I was always fearful for sure, but I have a way of just kind of blocking now when when something like that happens. So I just I'm like, I would just come home and just deal with it and then just tomorrow it's the same thing again.
So probably to a fault. I was like, resourceful enough to not really have to be too handicapped by my, like, the loss of a phone or the loss of whatever it is that you're going to take. Like I, I was pretty good on it on myself. Like all those things. I was capable and my friends were helping me out in every single way to be like for it to give me a place to stay or to, you know, like I was on a family plan with my friends since I was probably 16 or 15 and I was doing all that.
So it became easier as I got more committed to the lifestyle that I was living to live off of the fear. You know, like I said earlier, it was like a boost. I got as soon as I committed more, it just became easier and easier. And so I still I mean, I still got to deal with a conflict when I get home, but it's also not that long.
So I'm just going to fall asleep and just go the next day. There's, you know, I'm going to go and begin again whatever I was doing. But our relationship, I mean, it just seemed like it was being pushed further and further. But then at a certain point it just became like, I'm just not going to even regard it.
00;16;16;06
Enzo
It's just not even a problem really, because I'm just totally blocked off to that whole aspect of my life. I'm just not going to engage with that.
00;16;25;08
Brenda
Yeah, When you we've talked before about how those friends really became your family and in your mind that was your family. We were just sort of incidental people in your life, which I think is really hard for parents to understand. The importance of those friends, even if they're friends who are leading you into trouble and, you know, chaos.
It's still really important. And yeah, to a parent observing this, it makes no sense. And you cannot understand, like, why is he doing this or why is she doing this? And, you know, I think that's something that we have to remind ourselves because I know we've talked also in the past about, you know, I would say, well, what were you thinking when you were doing X, Y, Z?
And you would be like, nothing. I wasn't thinking like there was no consideration of, oh, should I do this or not?
00;17;22;18
Enzo
Yeah, I mean, the friends did become a family for me. There was, you know, after the divorce, I mean, I was probably 11 or ten when that happened. So, I mean, that's a critical moment at any time in your life, too, is a memorable moment when your parents get divorced. But as I got older and, you know, I started to see my dad less from, you know, from time to time, I'm seeing him less and less.
And then I'm getting older. My 13 or 14 is just less and less frequent. Well, now I lose all my friends that I grew up with and I've got nobody. And so I got an Xbox. So I was playing Xbox a whole bunch. I want you remember. I'm sure I went to Xbox Phase. Yes. And then and then I found the best friends and the the friends were such a relief to me because I was like, Oh my gosh, finally I've got somebody that I can just always rely on every day.
You know, I can if I need to see this guy right now, it's going to happen right now, like he's not far and they're willing to be with me every single day. Yeah. So and it was every day. I mean, it was on like every other day. I go to school one day, come back, like, hang out with my friends.
00;18;34;10
Enzo
The next day it was every single day. So that kind of a presence in the mind of a teenager in the psychology of a teenager is becomes your family. Right? So it made it super difficult to to fear the consequence from my actual family because I'm like, whoa, my real family is actually totally cool with that. You know, you guys aren't cool with that.
But in my brain, my whole mentality has been shattered about like, what is my family? And so but I know for sure every day of the week, Monday to Sunday, I'm going to be able to go and spend time with this friend or these friends. And we're going to do what what we do and pray through the waiting that the input from you had or the input from somebody else had.
You know, because my actual family is my friends at that point.
00;19;25;22
Brenda
So yeah.
00;19;26;23
Enzo
That's what made it a challenge to kind of take a step back and listen to anybody.
00;19;31;15
Brenda
Yeah. And I was just going to ask that did you ever have a time where you did sort of contemplate like, is this a good idea or are things going in the wrong direction? Like, did that ever enter your mind or were you just a 150% on the train going the other direction?
00;19;52;26
Enzo
I'm trying to think if there was ever a time that I thought anything I was doing, I don't think there was. Don't think I really did go and double think it because it was working. So since it works so good every day and I mean there unless somebody is in jail or somebody is, you know, not around for whatever reason there is, like they're going to be there.
So it was super consistent and it was like it's hard to hard to deal with. Think that when every single day your mind is is totally engaged in that process, you know, or that lifestyle.
00;20;40;00
Steve
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00;21;33;28
Brenda
I'm thinking about when we decided to have you go to wilderness therapy. That was a pretty big consequence. D Is that kind of the first like major consequence that you remember having?
00;21;48;12
Enzo
Yeah, yeah. First major, real consequence that actually I had no option. And the reason for it was because there was no option to, to disregard that one. I mean you can ground me but I'm going to leave anyway or you can take my phone, but I'm going to use that phone that I'm on family planning where it's like I will buy a phone.
And so that when that was difficult to to disregard.
00;22;12;16
Brenda
Yeah, well, it's hard. Yeah. When you're in a completely different state and you were transported and there's a lot of controversy about transporting we don't probably don't have time to get into that now but you know, sometimes parents end up in a situation where they're fearful for their child's life, and that was really the only thing that we could figure out to do to try and at least get you somewhere safe for a while until we could figure something else out.
But as you went through these different phases of different friends in all of the high risk stuff that you were doing and the fun that you were having, substances came into that picture. At some point.
00;22;51;02
Enzo
It started at probably 12 or 13, I can't remember.
00;22;55;20
Brenda
And you always had a little bit of a adventurous spirit. I would say. And I'll never forget you told me I can't remember when you told me this that you had a memory of being in like third or fourth grade and the teacher had said that there was a plant or something. Do you know what story I'm talking about?
00;23;16;23
Enzo
Yeah, I do. I do.
00;23;18;04
Brenda
What was that?
00;23;19;05
Enzo
What? So. Well, so it was probably third or fourth grade, and it was like the introduction to just the possibility of drug use that can happen in the future. And the teacher was explaining that there's a plant that you can get caught with the car, with this plant, you can go to jail and you just, just because you had it on you, just because the police found it on you.
And I said I was thinking, why's that? And she was explaining that it can get you. You can use it to feel different. And immediately I was like, Well, I would have tried it right then if, you know, like if you had shown me the plant, why not try it? You know, because I want to feel a difference.
I want to see something different, you know, or experience a different experience. So I was just fascinated that that was a possibility. And obviously later on that possibility came about. But, you know, I was probably about third grade or fourth grade that I was like curious about different drugs, and I was 12 or 13. And then I started smoking weed or at least smoked weed for the first time.
And then it became more and more of a present thing in my life until probably I mean, the alcohol use was there to, but I didn't venture too far out into the world of other drugs until after I came home from wilderness or from, you know, adventure therapy. But it got far more serious after that.
00;24;52;08
Brenda
You went through several different so you went to wilderness therapy, went to residential treatment. There was a detox in there. There was a return to sober living. I don't even know what else, but what what was that experience and what do you think you picked up along the way from from being in different treatment programs?
00;25;14;19
Enzo
The interesting thing is that when I was going through all of that, like the it's hard to forget kind of some of the skills and some of the thought exercises and different ideas that you learn in the therapy world. And so it did become time to go and actually get my life together. I guess that's when everything kind of came back.
And so, you know, I was able to think about like, oh my gosh, like this is hard. If I'm going through like whatever little job or any kind of thing, like this is hard wood. And then I remember back to the to the wilderness like it ended, though I get all that and, you know, and so there's this a bunch of different little things and different quotes that people tell you and different ideas.
And really it all came together when I decided that I was going to change my life and I was going to improve my life. And that's when all these tools that that they were forcing down my throat, that's when I used all of them, because I was like, Man, I'm going to actually actually want to get ahead. Like, I want to start building a life for myself.
And what I referenced to go back and do that is to go back to what I learned in the residential treatment, what I learned in the wilderness, all the different processes that they teach you and the ideas and things. Those all came back once I was able to decide for myself that I wanted to use them.
00;26;38;27
Brenda
Yeah, and that's interesting because a lot of times people talk about, you know, well, did wilderness therapy work for your son or did residential treatment work? And I think defining the word work is really, really difficult because, yeah, it's, you know, it's like the crock pot version of of progress. It's very slow sometimes when you did let's see.
So it was 2017 and you were pretty off the rails. I would say things were were really bad. We were really not communicating. You were kind of bouncing around, living, I don't know, different places sometimes on your dad's boat, which terrified me because I was thinking substance use boat, water, near death. They're like, That's all I could think about.
All right. Did you know that you were kind of progressively going downhill? Because that was pretty extreme, Like what was going on in your head at that point?
00;27;42;27
Enzo
It's hard to say what was going on in my head because of just the the nature of drug use. So you're not really thinking too much about what you're thinking about. You know, you're not you're not doing too much thought about what you're thinking. So but I do remember a couple of times where I said, well, this is getting out of control.
You know, like I'm getting out of control here. I mean, I can remember like two or three times where I was just like, Wow, I don't want to do this. And I was like, Man, this sucks, but I'm going to figure it out. Like, I'm going to figure it out. And I didn't really take much action to do that, but I did have a couple of brief moments in there where I was like, Yeah, something bad would happen or whatever.
And I'd just say, Oh my gosh, like, do I want to keep living this way? Or like, you know, there was a1i was messing with one substance. And I realized at one point I was like, If I continue doing this substance, this is going to get really bad because I've been playing with the pills and I've been doing everything.
And but if I keep playing with this, this is going to get bad 40 minutes pass. And then I'm like, okay, well, I'm just, you know, just keep rolling with it.
00;28;55;19
Brenda
Yeah. And, and see, this is this is the time, I think when when we would love to be able to just crawl inside somebody's head and understand what you know, like when you're thinking, oh, my gosh, this is really terrible. Is it that physiological like withdrawals are kicking in? And it's like, well, I got to put that on hold because I need to go get something.
Or does it just feel way too overwhelming to even know where to start? I'm assuming I did not feel like a safe person to go to to say, Hey, I think maybe I want to make some changes because all I would do is yell at you. So I'm just curious if, you know, in that moment, what was it that prevented you from taking that step?
00;29;42;26
Enzo
I think it was just the overwhelming like task of it's a daunting task to look at because, I mean, I'm sitting here with absolutely nothing like I don't have a cigaret or I don't have, you know, or whatever. I don't have even like a plan for what I'm going to do to eat later today. Yeah. So then to go and say, okay, well, let me think about how I'm going to get clean.
Well, I can tell you right now off the bat, I'm going to have to go and do a treatment. I'm going to have to go to achieve my center. And there's a lot of negative things that are going to come after that, too. I have to deal with all the court cases. I have to deal with that. I have to deal with detox.
I have to go and make five calls or, you know, I have to reach out to three people. And so those kind of things stop you from wanting to go and engage with them, because the other option is just to keep it rolling. And so keeping it rolling is far easier to do than it is to engage with that landslide of a task that I've got to deal with.
The problem is that these moments don't come in a public setting when you're like with your mom or when you're with somebody that can help you out. It's when you're alone and you're on a bus or you fell asleep at the bus stop and it's six in the morning and, you know, or whatever, you know, like that, that's those moments come few and far between, even even as they do.
00;31;03;19
Enzo
And so the chance that you're going to be in a situation where it's like, okay, actually I can make help is like, let's make it easy for you to get that help or to do that step or whatever. It's usually not the case that that moment comes when that opportunity is easy to take. So that's probably the biggest hiccup that I'd say that comes with that.
But there were moments. There definitely moments.
00;31;26;24
Brenda
Yeah, I know. That's really good insight. And I think, you know, what we what we try to share with parents around these kind of situations is just to at least make it known that you you're a place that they could go for help if and when that choice ever comes. Because I know I was definitely not that I you know, I did I didn't know what end was up either.
So I'm sure I didn't feel like a safe place to go, although I think we did have I remember, you know, we would go out to breakfast or we would go grocery shopping. And I was really trying to connect with you outside of your substance use.
00;32;03;23
Enzo
Yeah, that was awesome. Those times. I'll never forget those times where we go to the grocery store and I'd be like, man sick. I'd be like trying to get a bunch of yogurt or whatever, you know, I'm going to get a bunch of this microwave style, whatever it was. That was awesome.
00;32;18;28
Brenda
Yeah. And, you know, some people would call that enabling. I felt like if I could provide you with some food so that you weren't, you know, I don't know what you were doing for food. Probably not a lot. And to me, the important part of those connection points was the conversation that we would have walking up and down the aisle of the grocery store, more so than the food, which I knew you needed.
Yeah, but it was just having a conversation about, Oh, do you like this kind of yogurt? Oh, do you? And, you know, you would always shock me with the stuff that you would know and talk about. And I'm like, this kid is like, out of his mind. But you still were, you know, you were still you. And that's another really important thing is that you're so much more than just that substance use and whatever else is going on.
And it's so easy to forget that as a parent, because all you see is this person just like disintegrating in front of you and you just are desperate to do anything you can.
00;33;13;26
Enzo
Yeah.
00;33;14;21
Brenda
But yeah, I regard those as really special moments, eating fire and just trying to stay connected with you.
00;33;23;26
Enzo
It might be worth it if you have a kid that's going through a problem like that, it might be worth it, you know, to go and just go and spend some time, whatever it is. Like if they're willing to do it, you know, go and, you know, go get a Gatorade for a pack of Gatorade or whatever, you know, whatever it is.
00;33;43;14
Brenda
Those can be magical moments. So very important. So, you know, people always ask me, what was it that made your son change? What was it? What was it? And I always say it wasn't just one thing. It was a it was a constellation of different things that came together. But definitely after your overdose in 2017, which was extreme, right, you had a heart attack or a stroke.
You your kidneys shut down. You were on life support for three days. Like this was no joke. This was a big deal.
00;34;16;07
Enzo
You know, month of recovery.
00;34;17;29
Brenda
Physical recovery, like learning how to walk, learning how to brush your teeth, learning how to swallow. I mean, maybe talk just a little bit about what that was like.
00;34;28;20
Enzo
Well, yeah, I mean, that was the experience that did change it honestly. And yeah, I was just a brutal wake up call because I don't know how religious your your listeners are. Maybe they're not or whatever it is but I remember I was in a situation, I prayed to God to let me out, please let me out of the situation.
Miraculously, the next day, I'm completely the situation is gone. You know, I'm like back to normal. And I told them I'll I'll stop that. Just give me the situation and I'll stop. And of course, a couple hours after the situation was relieved, I immediately went back to and broke my promise. And then the overdose happened. I think he pretty much sent me back to being a baby again.
Like, you know, learn to walk, learn to talk, learn to read the analog clock on the wall. I couldn't look at that situation after getting out of the hospital. I mean, I was walking and my foot was angled to the side still, like I couldn't walk upstairs as fast. Like I wouldn't have been able to run from a dog if it wanted to attack me or whatever.
So looking at that situation, I just don't think I could have looked at that and said, All right, I'm going to still make it out. Like maybe I'm I'm more humble than other people because other people, they, you know, they'll overdose a couple of times and they just don't want to stop. Like I'm afraid that will overdose and just continue again.
00;35;59;26
Enzo
But like, I just wasn't able to look at that situation and think I'm still going to be able to I can still pull all this off, you know, I can still figure it out, even though that just happened. Like I'll still make it work somehow. So that was really the turning point for when I said, okay, you know what?
I have to figure something out. Like I have to try something else because this one, this route that I'm trying to go is not going to end well.
00;36;25;23
Brenda
Yeah, well, and it almost didn't end well. It was. Mm. Away from not ending well. So I agree. I think you're, you know, you're definitely here for a reason and you know the work that you're doing is, is so important and so impactful what do you think parents mostly don't understand about all of this? Like, you work with these kids, you work you know, you don't work with the parents, but you see you see the interactions.
And just from your vantage point, what do you think? Parents don't understand?
00;37;01;15
Enzo
And I don't think parents understand the value of like the relationship with their kid. And it makes sense because it's your kid and they're doing something that's extremely concerning. So it's easy to put all your focus on that concerning thing and you want to solve that issue naturally. As a parent, I'd imagine. But what happens is sometimes the relationship kind of falls out of the picture and it becomes more of an issue that you're dealing with rather than your kid.
You know, most of the time when I talk to the boys that I work with, a lot of them say that my my dad just doesn't talk to me, you know, or like if he talks to me, he's mad. And so, like, remembering that, like, you got to talk to your kid and you got to be a parent to a child first, and then also engage in the problem that your child has kind of destroyed into.
So, yeah, forgetting about the relationship part is probably one of the worst problems that I see that happen with kids with substance use pros without the relationship, what reason is there to even go back and improve your your situation? You know, that's the fundamental part of the whole issue. You know, so always have to go back to their relationship.
00;38;23;24
Brenda
Yeah and it's it's hard to do It is really hard to do. But I hear that a lot from people that I have on the podcast, that that relationship does tend to just start to fall apart because we get laser focused on fixing, fixing, fixing what do you wish I would have known, like during these years, all the way from when you were ten, 12, 15, 16, 18?
Would you wish I would have known?
00;38;51;09
Enzo
I don't know. Maybe that I'm trying. Like I'm trying. You know, probably those two words is I'm trying, I'm trying something, you know? So.
00;38;59;13
Brenda
Yeah. And we don't see that a lot, right? Because what we see is the the negative behavior. And we don't see what's going on up here in your head. And the thoughts that you're having, especially if we are busy and, you know, trying to solve our own problems and trying to solve other kids problems. And and it can get really easy to lose sight of that fact that you are trying you know, looking back, are there are there times when you could have seen things going differently, like is there an inflection point where you made some decisions that you look back and they either furthered you down this path?
That was I don't want to say wrong, because it's such a part. It's just such a part of who you are. But it it it put you down that path versus if there was a different decision, you might have turned towards a more positive or less chaotic path.
00;40;04;22
Enzo
Yeah, it's a hard one. It's a hard one because like the path I did take, ultimately it did lead me, thankfully, you know, by the grace of God to this point. But, you know, I do wonder what would have happened if I didn't, like, lose all the friends that I grew up with, you know, from the from the neighborhood.
Like, what would life have been like if I if I had, you know, went to college, if I didn't stray down that other path? Probably what would have happened if I didn't lose all those friends from from the second grade.
00;40;38;21
Brenda
The boys that you work with now and what you see in them are their commonalities that you see. You mentioned, you know, the that often that there's a strained relationship with their dad, but do you see yourself in them? Like what is that like? Because I got to imagine it's pretty mind boggling sometimes to be working with these guys who that was you, you know, not not that long ago.
00;41;03;13
Enzo
It blows my mind a lot how similar I still am to them. ADHD 100%. Usually super thoughtful, like very, very thoughtful. Sensitive, for sure. A lot of them are sensitive in the way that they just like to goof off and they like they're so playful. So it makes it fun for me. You got to remember this, a kid that you're talking about.
So it's easy to hit a kid with a theory or some kind of psychological concept or some kind of, you know, whatever it is that you're talking about. But you may as well tell the kid you might as well speak to them in a completely different language, like the best way that I've found a connect with the Kids is just to be playful with them, you know?
And it's probably difficult to go and think about how you're going to do that as a parent that for a couple of years now or however many years, has not been playful with the kid at all. But in the same, you know, it's you've got to approach it like, let me try and do something different. You know, let me let me tell the kid, hey, listen, I know I've been a little bit rigid with you or whatever the situation may be, but I'm trying to do something different.
00;42;17;15
Enzo
And I want to I want to just go and go bowling or whatever, you know? I mean, and No, no, you know, mention of anything else. Just. Just bowl. Go, bowl. You know, just go do that or whatever.
00;42;31;04
Brenda
Another thing that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, parents get into the situation and often we blame ourselves. So, oh, my gosh, if I would have done this, if I wouldn't have done that, if I had only done this, I went through you know, I traveled a lot. Right. When when you were young, I had a job that had me on the road a lot.
I worked a lot. So I went through. Oh, if I'd only been home more. I know. Stay at home moms who say, Oh, if only I'd had a job and I'd been out of the house a little bit more. But when it when it comes to sort of turning inward and in blaming ourselves and, you know, or I could have done this like I think, oh, if I hadn't let you spend the night at this guy's house or I hadn't, you know what I mean?
What give us your thoughts on that, because I think you have some good perspective on that.
00;43;24;04
Enzo
Was funny because I tell the kids the same thing about their, may I say, years. There's a lot of ways to complicate your life and there's a lot of ways that you can think yourself into complicating your life. And really most of it is usually the problem is that humans want to solve problems. It's a natural thing for humans.
So we go and we look at how we could have solved the problem. But you've already missed the whole point is you're only complicating the situation further by thinking, Oh my gosh, I should have done this. Oh my gosh, I shouldn't have done this or could have done, you know, could have, should have would a is what I'm going to, you know, like right now is when we're living in this right now is where you got to think about not what you did last year or not, where you moved to the area you moved to.
You've already done that. So think about from now on into the future. But don't go too far into the future either. Just stay as close to here as you can and just think about how am I going to improve it right now, today, and how if I can't do it today, what can I learn or what can I research?
What can I do to get to make myself better? Said tomorrow I can do it better.
00;44;42;06
Brenda
That is some very wise advice, I would say. What are the kids responses to that When you when you talk about that with them?
00;44;50;17
Enzo
Almost nine times out of ten, they say they don't even have an answer for me because they understand, oh, my gosh, I'm complicating my life, you know, And they understand it is true right off the bat. Yeah. You know, so, I mean, oftentimes I'll tell them, you know, listen, there's a hundred ways you can complicate your life. And then right then they say, oh, my gosh, you're right.
Like, this is a useless thought that I'm having or this is completely not even related to what's going on right now. Like in and usually that's not for him. So of course, you're going to get the one, you know, out of ten that's going to say, well, no, this is a valid to think about. I got a plan or whatever.
I got to think about it. But most of the time, right then they understand that, oh, yeah, I'm actually this is not part of what it's going to help me right now.
00;45;43;19
Brenda
Yeah, well, I think the advice is is really good for parents as well, because we do spend a lot of time up in our heads just complicating things, and we could use that time instead to make that connection with our kids. Right. And just to say, hey, let's go do something fun. I've been all over you about this and and let's just try to reconnect.
00;46;05;19
Enzo
Acknowledge it, acknowledge it, you know?
00;46;08;00
Brenda
Yeah.
00;46;08;25
Enzo
Don't just try. And because this is the thing is, are they trying? Oh, okay. Yeah, I probably have been a little bit crazy. Now I'm going to go and just invite my kid to dinner or whatever it is. Well, what do you think the kid is going to think when you go and invite him dinner and you think he's going to rely on information that he has from the past about what's happened in the past?
Or do you think he's going to understand in his mind right away that, oh, he's invited me to dinner, Maybe he wants to make a change of how he approaches our relationship. So the second option is probably not what the kid's going to think, and he has no reason to think that. So it's clear you have to be clear right off the bat that this is I'm you know, this and I've looked at how I've done things in the past.
I want to just go bowling, Like, I just want do that. I don't want to talk about whatever happened to, you know, whatever I did in the past. Nothing. I don't want to, you know, just I want to just do this this bowl. And then you have to stick to that. You can't you can't go and try and slip something in or slip some information in or whatever.
You know, you just you have to stick to it if you're going to do it.
00;47;14;24
Brenda
Yeah. Don't try to sneak in the hey, there's this great treatment program that I heard about that's that's going to that's going to be a killer for sure. I have to ask you, because so many parents have kids who have been to various kinds of treatment and then they have to come home. I'm talking mostly adolescents, but also college age kids.
They have to come home to the same environment that they left and I know for you, getting out of your home environment was pretty instrumental in getting away from, you know, the people and places and all of that. Is there. What kind of thoughts do you have about a parent who's like, Man, my kid's coming home from treatment next month, same house, same school, same neighborhood, same everything.
You're in a unique position because you see the kids as they're heading out into that environment. And I imagine sometimes boomeranging back into treatment. What kind of what kind of thoughts you have about how to set that kid up for the best success or the and set up the parents for success, too?
00;48;22;20
Enzo
I'd probably say just the you've got to do something different. If you can't control where you living or you can't control who they're hanging out with, you can control what you're going to do and how you're going to approach the situation. Whatever you did before, whatever ended up happening, if it works, sure, go ahead and do that again.
But if you try to, you know, the the the given techniques that you most parents try, it's likely going to provide the same result. So, I mean, you've got to show the kid, too, that you want you want a different situation. You know, a lot of the kids, if they frustrated because they are out here in treatment or they're they've been through two treatment centers already or whatever it is, but their parents haven't done any kind of any kind of adjustment to their strategy because a lot of the time their parents feel like they're completely right.
And my whole approach to my job is I don't want to make myself at a higher level than the kid anyway, because at the end of the day, I'm just older than them. Yeah, I have a lot of life experience on the kid, but that says nothing about the value of me being a person and him being a person.
Like were both just people at the end of the day. So I try and bring it back to that because when, when you're on the same level with the kid, they're going to feel a different or a different sense of listening to you. So I'm not saying tell the kid like, Hey, I don't have any power over you whatsoever, you know, or don't tell the kid.
00;49;58;25
Enzo
You can just go and do anything you want. Now, at this point, you know, just but you've got to make it seem like you're approaching the relationship and you're pushing the effort to change on an equal level. Like, hey, I know, you know, we've had a crazy relationship in the past. I'm I'm hoping to that it's clear that I've done a couple of things to try and improve our relationship and.
A lot of ego has a lot to do with that because apparently they're perfectly successful in their job. Perfectly successful. You know, in their position, whatever they do. But when you come home, there's a lot of chaos going on. And so it's hard to separate those two things, like just because you are successful in your role, you could probably still improve with the relationship with your kid.
And so if you just tell the kid that it's super difficult because obviously nobody likes to go and put it in the air, the fact that, you know, they're screw it up in one area, nobody ever, no matter what, no one likes to do that. But if you can just tell the kid humbly, hey, like I, I do want to make a difference.
I want to I know you validate their effort, too. You know, I know you've been through a lot of treatment. You've learned a lot of stuff. I'm hoping that you can tell that I've tried. I'm trying to do some stuff different, too. And I think that's going to set a lot of the animosity to the side.
00;51;22;03
Brenda
I like that humble and authentic and and it's tricky to do to also retain your sort of parental role. So it's not that that's an easy thing to do, but that's why we always recommend parents have a therapist or a coach or someone like that. Well, I know I need to let you go, but when you sort of step back 50,000 foot view and look down on this, your journey, the craziness that you went through and where you are now and kind of where where you're going and what you're looking forward to in life.
What what question didn't I ask you that you think is important for for parents to hear or some what some wisdom that you've acquired along the way that you want to impart.
00;52;11;08
Enzo
You got to ask questions like, I wouldn't I wouldn't have a particular question to give you to ask, but you have to ask questions. And so just to ask questions alone, that's enough of a thing, you know, to go and ask the kid. Have you thought about what getting clean would entail? And then No, no, because there's this problem in this, you know, none of that just ask a simple question.
Have you ever even thought about stopping this process or have you ever thought about just living without drugs? Or have you ever thought about what might happen if you do get this college degree or what might happen if you do finish high school? Right. Nobody really likes to just ask a question and hear the answer because a lot of the time the question is loaded and you've got four reasons why you're asking the question.
Yes, but the thing about a loaded question, the way to unload the question is just to ask the question, but not even expect not have a reason for why you're asking the question. And most of the time the kid is going to know the right answer. So he's going to know what the answer is or she will know what the answer is like.
What will happen if you started it, if you got a job? Like, have you ever thought about what it would be like to be earning money? Something like that would is a total different way to put an idea in the kid's head, because it's far easier to listen to yourself than it is to listen to your parents or to for at least for me and for a lot of the kids that I work with, they don't listen to people.
00;53;50;15
Enzo
So if you ask them a question, you're you're you're giving them an opportunity to say something, but you don't have to you don't have to go and tell them anything because they're not going to listen anyway. So if you ask a question, make them tell themselves what the answer is because they're not completely clueless. Sometimes you get a kid who's not as bright, but most of the time they're super smart, so they're going to know the answer to the question.
And it's just about being able to provide that opportunity for them to tell themselves, Oh, this is the answer. You can have an agenda, but just don't make it clear that you have the agenda. You know, they just I have an agenda most of the time I ask a question with the kids, but it comes off like I'm just genuinely curious because I am curious what the kid's thinking.
Like, I want to know, is he actually thinking about this? And most of the time he is. So I'm just assuming that he's probably going to have the right answer. He might even go and say some wild, different answer that he knows is not the right answer. But always it's okay to have an agenda. You're the parent. You know, you can you can you can have a goal for your kid.
But it's about getting him to be on board with the goal. So asking a question is the best way to do that, because I'm sure most parents, they want their kid to go to college. But why? Right. Because they want them now. The successful life. The kid wants a successful life. That's nope, no kid is set on just being doomed like he wants to be doomed.
00;55;19;21
Enzo
So you ask him a question like, Well, why do you think I want you to go to college? He's not going to be like, Oh, because you want me to be doomed. You might say that and get mad. Yeah, well, he's going to think to himself. Oh, oh, it's probably because he wants me to be able to get a good job, you know, because my mom wants me to get a good job.
That's their dad. They know the answer. So it's fine having to just make it. Just don't ask the question and force the answer out of them. Just ask the question and they're going to tell you the answer. And if he tells you a wild off answer, that's an attempt to frustrate you. Just know that that's what he's doing, you know, And then he certainly does know the answer.
00;56;01;01
Brenda
Yes. And in that case, they definitely do. So.
00;56;04;23
Enzo
Yeah.
00;56;05;22
Brenda
Well, I can't thank you enough for taking this time, having a conversation. And there's, you know, a lot more that we could dig into. But I think these are the sort of the key questions that parents have on our minds as we're watching our kids struggle or whatever it is that they're doing. We just so badly want to peel back their brain and say what is going on in there.
So this has been extremely helpful. Love you.
00;56;34;12
Enzo
And I love you, too.
00;56;35;23
Brenda
I appreciate you doing this.
00;56;38;02
Enzo
Yeah.
00;56;39;16
Brenda
Okay. That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane dot com forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there. So that's very you might also want to download a free e-book I wrote. It's called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when my son was Misusing drugs.
It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda's income. Forget hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself.
And I will meet you right back here next week.