Substance Misuse Makes Perfect Sense: Redefining Addiction and Recovery, with Adam Sud

Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity

Guest: Adam Sud, CEO Plant-Based For Positive Change

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About this episode:

After years of stimulant abuse, Adam Sud tried to take his own life with an overdose - which thankfully failed. In the decade that followed that pivotal event, he became a behavioral wellness nutrition expert, international speaker, and the founder and CEO of a nonprofit that studies how nutrition impacts mental health and addiction. Adam has so much to share – not just about food, but about the core motivations and behaviors connected to substance misuse. He’s full of truths that are sometimes hard to hear, but are invaluable to help parents understand what their kids are going through, as well as how to be an active part of their recovery - and importantly, how not to sabotage it.

Episode resources:

INFINITE Study on plant based diet and addiction recovery

Adam’s website

Rip Esselstyn, PlantStrong

Doug Lisle, Ph.D., Author, The Pleasure Trap

Doug Lisle, Ph.D. Ted Talk

Plant Based for Positive Change (Adam’s nonprofit organization)

Johan Hari Ted Talk (Rat Park Experiment)

• Episode transcript

  00;00;03;10

  Adam

  The most important thing, the most valuable thing left to us is a sense that we have people that matter to us and that they see us as someone who matters to them, that we are a valuable part of their goings on, of their world. And there's a fear that if I were to let you know everything about what's going on, if you were to truly see, you might not want me anymore.

  And the threat of that is so profound that that is usually what prevents someone from taking that step, whether it's the person who's abusing substances or is the person of witness to it.

  00;00;48;20

  Brenda

  You're listening to Hope Stream. The place for those parenting teens and young adults who are misusing drugs and alcohol in a treatment program or working their way toward recovery. It's your private space to learn and to gain encouragement and understanding for me. Your host friend is saying I'm fellow parent to a child who struggled, and I'm so glad you're here.

  To learn more about all the resources available to you besides a podcast, please head over to HopeStream Community.org.

  Hey, friend, guess what? Today's episode is the happy result of the collision of two of my biggest passions addiction and whole food plant based eating. I don't really talk about it much here, but I adopted a whole food plant based diet while I was on my own recovery journey from the trauma of living through my son's crazy and dangerous years because my health and my nutrition and wellness basically all of me got relegated to last place for about five years and I was a mess and a half.

  So when my son started doing better after his second overdose and I turned the focus back to myself a little bit, I made some pretty significant shifts in how I took care of my health. And one of those shifts was to a plant based diet. So of course, being the researcher that we all are. I listen to lots of podcasts about food and nutrition and especially plant based eating, and that is where the collision happened.

  That led me to track down my guest for today's episode. And you may have looked at this episode and wondered, why is it so long? Well, you just wait. Because when I first heard Adam's story and wisdom for families, I was actually trying to figure out how I could contain it to under an hour, which according to I don't know who the podcast people of the World is, kind of the magic time interval that you should try to hit if you want to keep people engaged and listening to your whole episode.

  00;02;58;23

  Brenda

  Well, I realized that that was a really bad reason to restrict what I know will be a game changing conversation for you when it comes to understanding some of what might be going on in the heart, in the mind of your child or the other person that you love who misuses substances. It's so rare to find people who have the qualifications of lived experience with addiction and being highly articulate and insightful that limiting this conversation seemed like it would be a little bit irresponsible of me.

  So if you need to, you can listen and pause and come back and also be sure to have a way to take some notes, because I'm guessing you're going to want to talk some of Adam's nuggets of wisdom into your back pocket to use when the time is right. Well, let me just tell you a little bit about Mr. Adam said before I let you in on this illuminating and inspiring conversation.

  Adam is a behavioral wellness and nutrition expert. He's an international speaker. He is the founder and CEO of Plant Based for Positive Change, which is a nonprofit dedicated to advancing research and understanding of how nutrition impacts mental health and addiction in 2020. He ran the first controlled research trial to investigate the effects of a plant based nutrition intervention on early addiction recovery outcomes.

  He currently coaches individuals using nutrition, the science of behavior change and evolutionary psychology to understand and achieve their personal mental health and wellness goals. Also importantly, in 2012, Adam was personally struggling with multiple addictions, serious chronic diseases. He had mental health disorders and his life almost came to an end when he attempted suicide by drug overdose with the help of treatment.

  00;04;58;18

  Brenda

  And when he decided to implement a plant based diet, he began a journey that led to the reversal for reversal of his chronic disease conditions, the cancellation of all medications and the lowering of his weight from class three, obesity, £350 to a healthy £175. Also very importantly, he is 11 years sober again. You may want to take notes.

  It is a goldmine of information and enlightenment about why people who misuse substances do so. Why it makes perfect sense to them. And importantly, what we can do as people who love them to help them want to change. I can't wait for you to hear it. Here's me and Adam said, Enjoy.

  Here we are. Adam, thank you for joining me. As I was telling you, I. I also am hopeful plant-based. And so I was listening to one of my favorite podcasts because of my role that I have to listen to stuff that doesn't have to do with addiction and all of a sudden here I am hearing my two favorite things combined addiction, substance use, mental health, and a plant based diet.

  So welcome.

  00;06;19;07

  Adam

  Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here and have this conversation with you. And those are my favorite subjects. It's going to be great.

  00;06;26;22

  Brenda

  I know it's kind of a weird combo. People are like, what? It's it's interesting because I did not come into the whole food plant based diet until after my son's experience. And I was trying to rebuild my health because a lot of parents, you know, our kids struggle. We just forget about ourselves completely. It's like, Oh, I'll take care of her in, you know, whenever this crisis ends.

  So that's when I found, you know, plant based diet and started really diving into. I heard you on Simon Hill's podcast. And so, yeah, there's a million things that we're going to get into, but I would just love to ask you, like, how are you right now in this moment today?

  00;07;11;01

  Adam

  Today I'm doing really well. As I mentioned, I'm in Wyoming, which is not where I live. I live in Austin, Texas, and Austin is it's been consistently increasing in temperature in the summer, not necessarily in like how hot it gets, but how how quickly it gets to its hottest and how long it sustains that heat. And my wife and I decided we wanted to get out of the heat.

  My father in law has a place in Wyoming, and we said, Let's just go. We'll stay there. We're going to stay here through most of August. So we're sleeping with the window open, 55 degree evenings. We wake up 60 degree mornings, we go for we go hike in the canyon. And believe it or not, we're in a town of about 750 people.

  And there is the most enthusiastic pickleball crew here in this town. And so I am a I am a pickleball fanatic. When I'm home in Austin, I play about four days a week minimum. Wow. And I'm able to get Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 9 a.m., 2 hours of pickleball a day on those days. And so I am I'm feeling fantastic.

  But you look at the beautiful landscape of Wyoming. Play pickleball in the morning, sleep with the windows open. So I'm doing fantastic right now.

  00;08;30;03

  Brenda

  That sounds pretty magical. I think I could go down a big pickle ball rabbit hole, but I will not because I really want to get into some other stuff with you. Yeah.

  00;08;40;17

  Adam

  We can do a second episode about pickleball, about pickleball.

  00;08;44;00

  Brenda

  Yes. So could you ever imagine if you flashed back a ways in your life that you would be sitting here talking about playing pickleball for a couple of hours a day doing what you're doing?

  00;08;59;18

  Adam

  It's such an interesting question, and the answer is no. You know, over almost a little over 11 years ago at this point, I was I was approaching a suicide attempt. You know, my I had spent the better part of ten plus years dealing with substance use disorder. And at a very and stage level, I was dealing with extreme depression, anxiety.

  I was experiencing loneliness to a degree that was crippling. It wasn't that it wasn't the physical absence of people. That's not what I believe. There's a British journalist named Johann Hari. He wrote a phenomenal book called Lost Connections. He's given phenomenal TED Talks. He has a quote about loneliness. It is probably the best I've ever heard. And he says that loneliness isn't the physical absence of people.

  It is the sense that you have nothing of value to share with anyone. And that's truly how I was feeling. I had spent my early high school life, my by the time I was 15 and 16 years old, I spent the better part of a year being extremely bullied, both physically, verbally, emotionally. I felt very disconnected from a life that felt like a safe, secure, a hopeful place to be, both physically and emotionally.

  It wasn't always a safe place to be emotionally in front of my parents. Not not this is no like intentional. Anything intentionally that they were doing. It was there's just a lot of criticism about how I looked. My weight was starting to gain weight. And then I would go to school and I would experience intense bullying. So I wake up into a life I didn't feel like there was anything meaningful to be present for, right?

  00;10;42;03

  Adam

  In fact, the experience of being present in my life was a very painful place, very painful experience. It was very painful thing to do. And so when I discovered substance use, it wasn't as if I was like, Hey, listen, if I really start to abuse stimulants, it's going to be a good thing in ten years, right? You know, it's not like that's not the process that was happening.

  It was it was truly like an explorative, convivial thing that I was I was kind of reaching into in an attempt to to kind of create a sense of safety from these bullies. You know, if I was hey, look, look, guys, I have Adderall. There's really the situation was one of the one of the kids who bullied me, witnessed me take one of my one of my doses of Adderall in the middle of class my freshman year.

  And after class, he came up to me and said, hey, you know, with this kind of story, you know this, I'm so sorry we've been bullying you. You know, you're new to town and you're freshman. You know how it is. I mean, listen, I've told the guys no more. No more with that, All right? They're done. So we have a party this weekend.

  Why don't you come? And why don't do it. I just, like, take some Adderall. Right. So how did you bring that? If you could give us some of that at the party to be fantastic. And what was amazing was I felt so much relief hearing that because and I've said this before, you know, I was I was awkward.

  00;12;07;05

  Adam

  I was I was slightly overweight, but I wasn't I wasn't stupid by any stretch of imagination. So I knew exactly what's happening. I knew that there was no promise to stop bullying me. But I had a sense that if I could create a reality where if I was not harmed, I would provide Adderall for them. What a fantastic solution.

  What an attractive solution that might be to one aspect of my life that felt like a very, very difficult thing to experience regularly, which was physical and emotional harm. And so it felt and looked exactly like self-care. And then when I went to this party and I used Adderall as a recreational drug for the first time, I noticed that it was there was an additional layer of attraction to it.

  And I use that term attraction because I think it's I think it's an accurate description. People like to talk about chemical hooks in substances as being the the thing that that will compel an individual to continue to use. Up until that point, a lot of my daily life was spent in an experience of discomfort, hurt, confusion, pain, anxiety, anger, fear.

  There was very little, if any, aspect of my day to day life that felt like a safe, secure and hopeful place to be. And it didn't seem like that was going to end anytime soon. So my future was an equally unsafe, unsecure and hopeless place to be. And I'd been able to solve one aspect of it, which was the physical and emotional harm at school by using, by delivering Adderall.

  00;13;47;15

  Adam

  Now, I had it seemed like I might have been able to figure out how to solve the others. So Adderall is an stimulant. It's a it's an amphetamine. So what the stuff is, I'm not saying that because I anti-art or anti medicine, I just say it to be accurate. And so what that means is if I can take enough of it, I will I will ramp up my metabolism.

  I will also create an incredible sense of of confidence. I have unbelievable amounts of energy. I will increase the excitatory response of social activity. These were all things that I was missing and wasn't able to figure out. I was slightly overweight, Adderall and amphetamine. So if I take enough and I take that amount long enough, I can successfully restrict caloric intake.

  I also notice that people like me when I'm on Adderall, people like that I'm around when I'm on Adderall. I'm fun at the parties because I have boundless energy. I can party all night long. I also allow them to have a better experience because I can provide them with the same stimulus.

  00;14;45;10

  Brenda

  Like, what's wrong about this? Right?

  00;14;47;25

  Adam

  I know exactly my behaviors outside of the party experience, like in school work and everything seem to be very different. I seem to be able to focus and hyper focus on a single, single point of attention in a way that had never done so before, and that allowed me to behave in a way that seemed to impress my father.

  My dad was starting to become impressed. Adam, great job. You're losing weight. That's fantastic. Oh, my God. Out of earn your score. And that's fantastic. Way to go. That's to solve those unsolvable problems with ease and repeatability. That's important. Yeah. Is a very attractive thing to discover in your life. As long as that thing solves problems for you that could not have been solved with as much ease and repeatability any other way.

  So that attraction, that connection to that, that bonding that occurs to the substance use, it's appropriate.

  00;15;46;09

  Brenda

  Yeah.

  00;15;46;20

  Adam

  This isn't this isn't biology gone wrong. This isn't neurochemistry gone wrong. This isn't willpower gone wrong, This isn't discipline gone wrong. This is the exact right, appropriate risk, psychological and biological response to a stimulus that is that powerful and is that attractive to an individual in that situation. Yeah. And so, you know, I spent the better part of ten years going down the typical trajectory of a substance use disorder, which is at a certain point, it becomes too much.

  The solution becomes an overwhelming problem and it starts to cost you things. It starts to become a disorder is what I always like to tell people. Substance use is not always abusive. Some people are just substance users. They do it convivial. They go out on a Friday night, they have a couple drinks, a wine. They enjoy themselves. They don't need the wine to have a good time.

  They're having a good time and they have wine. It's a very different thing.

  00;16;44;25

  Brenda

  Very different combination.

  00;16;46;14

  Adam

  Of people, substance users. Some people end up in a state where that substance use becomes disordered, and that's what happened to me over time. What happened is the need, the connection, the profound importance that had become for me, have become so ever present that it had disordered my ability to be present for things that were very, very valuable in allowing me to live a healthy, meaningful life.

  Uh, what, when, how I eat? What? Who? Where was I being social? My connection to purpose, my connection to the goings on of the world around me, my ability to maintain hygiene, finances, all these really meaningful, important aspects of a balanced life got pushed aside in order to make more room for substance use. And that's really where it kind of went downhill to where the by the time I was 30, I was I was a little about £350.

  I had advanced diabetes and heart disease, which I didn't know about. I had erectile dysfunction, which I didn't know about. I was nearly I was about two weeks away from being kicked out of my apartment and have any money. I had severed meaningful relationships, not because they they hadn't consistently tried to be there, but because and I talked about this on the podcast with Simon.

  Yeah. So why do you think it is that people in that situation when it's starting to really get bad, why is it so difficult to ask for help and why is it also so difficult for the loved ones who are witness to that individual? Why is it so hard for them to come out and say, Hey, I see, I know, I know what's going on.

  00;18;28;20

  Adam

  It's not it's not hidden. We see it. What can we do? And I think that what's happening is when someone is struggling with substance use disorder, the most important thing, most valuable thing left to us is a sense that we have people that matter to us and that they see us as someone who matters to them, that we are a valuable part of their goings on of their world.

  And there's a fear that if I were to let you know everything about what's going on, if you were to truly see, you might not want me anymore. Yeah, and the threat of that is so profound that that is usually what prevents someone from taking that step, whether it's the person who's abusing substances or is the person of witness to it.

  And so that was my situation until August 21st of 2012 when I when I tried to end my life by suicide. And so the idea that I would ever find recovery and then on top of that, restore my health, and then on top of that, build a life that felt like such an exciting place to be present that would be it had been such an extraordinary effort to it to conceptualize not a chance in hell.

  00;19;44;07

  Brenda

  Yeah, yeah. And I ask the question because I recently had my my son home, who's now 26, and I as the observer and the witness of this whole experience, I was having a hard time believing how healthy and product of and amazing he is and what a life he has now. And I was like, Wait, how is this the same person?

  Can this actually be the same person? And when you're in that, can you even possibly know that you get to have a life like you get all the stuff that life has out there. You get to have that if you can break free of the. So I just, you know, thinking of how what a contrast that must must have been.

  00;20;33;01

  Adam

  Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because I'm coming up on 11 years in October and I, I try to think about how old was I when I, when the substance use became substance abuse and how long I lived in that disordered state. And I'm pretty sure 11 years will be a point where I have been this person longer than the person, than the life I was looking for for the first time.

  This is now the majority of my life, Right?

  00;21;02;11

  Brenda

  Right.

  00;21;03;05

  Adam

  That's a unique and kind of interesting thing to to consider. Wow. Like I am now mostly this person in terms of the context of my life.

  00;21;13;00

  Brenda

  Yeah. What a tipping point to to be able to look back on that. I was thinking about sort of all the different stories that I hear and I often will say to a guest in particular, Wow, sounds like it could be a Netflix series, right? Like, Oh my gosh, all these things that happened. So I'm wondering if this was going to be a Netflix show.

  What would the pilot look like? Like where would you go back to in your life to film the pilot for The Addams Show?

  00;21;45;06

  Adam

  I tell you what you know, I always like episodes that don't take place in a single point in time, but they're kind of rooted in one timeline, but then they kind of flash back on the points that kind of give give context to what you're witnessing. I would have the first episode take place within the first two weeks of sober living.

  MM When you look, when I look back at my story and I think about what was the most profoundly impactful environment for me to start to really become an architect of a life that felt like a meaningful place to be. I think about the ten months that I spent in sober living in the rehab hospital setting is fantastic because it's an amazing way to with with unbelievable certainty, divorce an individual from their substance, which is fantastic.

  Of course, you have to do that and then medically supervised those first 28 days where there could be some medical condition that arises that's been hidden by the substances or as a result of removing the substance use, but not a lot of actual profound change really takes place within those first 28 days. It's really just a safe way to spend a significant amount of time away from your substance, except that maybe, maybe its place in your life is a real problem.

  And then you go on to what I consider like the first real steps of transformation in Sober Living was that for me, it's where you pretty much have to like, learn how to live your life doing things other than using. Yeah, I tell people all the time I don't spend a moment's time avoiding substances. I'm not I'm not in the abstinence game.

  00;23;24;22

  Adam

  I happen to not use. But that is a result of it's a symptom of the intentional and very appropriate replacement that I've made in my life. Yes. How I've reorganized my life around very different behaviors that seem to create or at least help me build a life that I want to wake up and be present for. There is also it's also just like, I don't know how there hasn't been a Netflix series about sober living.

  00;23;52;06

  Brenda

  Right?

  00;23;53;09

  Adam

  There's so many binge terminal characters and stories and people in relationships and things that happen that you just can't make up. I mean, my goodness, yeah. So but I think it was it would be that because that's really where I was kind of forced to to figure out, okay, how am I going to do this thing? Because in rehab they make your bed, they give you food, and you do all that.

  They do everything for you in sober living. You got to learn how to do all this yourself. So I think would be there.

  00;24;25;28

  Brenda

  All right. So we would start in sober living. And I want to get to the study that you did on Whole Foods in Sober Living. But you had mentioned that your relationships had pretty much gone to pot and not that not that pot or pot. And and that this really started when you were in high school when you started to misuse.

  But what we know is that tends to be the outcome of something that happens earlier. So what was the dynamics like with your parents as you were kind of going along, not feeling super comfortable in the world, feeling like you were a little overweight and maybe some awkwardness? What would that episode of the story look like?

  00;25;17;05

  Adam

  When I was little, by the time I was about ten years old, that's when I started to not only receive verbal criticism about my my weight and my food choices, I was given a lot of messages growing up that there were conditions upon which you were allowed to accept yourself physically. I would get criticisms. My parents would notice and notice you have a love handles.

  Why do you have love handles on a ten year old? Don't know what the heck that means. And that's all well and good. I understand my parents were concerned. You know, my dad has lost a significant number of very close family members to preventable conditions. His dad died of colon cancer. His sister died of uncontrolled diabetes. And so she went into heart failure.

  His mom survived a heart attack and breast cancer and then she died in an accident. And in the end, she wouldn't have died had she not been on medication called Coumadin that she had to have been on because of the condition she was on as a trigger there. When he when he noticed something about someone he loves and he's like, oh, that could be a threat.

  That could be a threat to my son in ten years. I better I better fix that problem. Right? Or my son means the world to me. And I'm a I'm a type-A problem solver. So I'm just going to tell him there's a problem. I'm going to reiterate every time that I see that problem and let him know it's a problem.

  00;26;38;09

  Adam

  But here's the thing. My I grew up my dad, he looked like Captain America. Okay? You know, he was a basketball player, Captain. The high school basketball team would play basketball in the college a little bit. And then he then he picked up Marathon running and he played softball. And this is coming from running every single day, six pack abs the in the biceps.

  And and then I would witness him and listen to him criticize his own body. I just gosh, I can't believe I hate that. You know, Why would I do that? I know, I know. I know. I got to lose like five more pounds and I'm like, so what I really believe is that while, yes, having those messages directed at me were were damaging and hurtful, but witnessing my dad not accept his own body when he looks like that, I think that was a very profound experience for me, because here I am certainly look nothing like my dad.

  And if that's not lovable and I look like this, what chance do I have of ever, number one, not hearing my dad say those things to me, but number two, ever feel like I'm good enough for myself? And I tell parents this a lot. You can worry about the things you say to your your kids all day long, but the way that you talk about yourself in the presence of your kids is equally, if not more destructive, because that messaging, that dialog that you talk to yourself out loud, that will be an instrument that your child uses to craft their own internal dialog.

  And that's what happened to me. And so I would spend, you know, ten years from age ten to age 20, just constantly believing that my body was this adversarial opponent, that I was unfortunate to have been born into, and that every single day was a battle of of strength and determination and restriction and exertion in order to outcompete this enemy that I was living in and see a number on a scale go down two points and get all excited and the next day go up three points.

  00;28;50;29

  Adam

  And just I mean, it was while I didn't like the way that I looked, I so much and I so much loved what my body was able to do for me. I love that I was an athletic kid. I loved that I like to go skating and I like to play basketball. I like to play baseball and I like to play football.

  I wish that I had been given permission to love more what my body does for me. Right. And what it looks like. And I see this all the time falling in love with the body that you live in is first recognizing that loving what it does for you is more valuable than loving what it looks like. The ability to wake up with no body.

  That is a vehicle that can allow you to experience the things in life that you love the most. And I came to this relationship of what I call I adopted this, this, this term from a friend of mine, Dr. Tara Kemp, a caretaker role. When I was in Sober Living, I had a conversation with my house manager, Phil Hamburger, and Phil was asking me about my my surviving experience when I survived suicide and I attempted by overdose.

  I woke up on the floor of my apartment and I had a very profound experience of which is a very common one, which is immense relief to this day. I know that up until I attempted it, I thought I wanted my life to end. But it was the second that I realized I had failed at ending my life, that I realized I was so grateful to still be a part of this world and that suicide is, in every single case, someone wanting to end pain.

  00;30;44;04

  Adam

  Period. End of story. Whether that suicide is justified or not, like let's say an individual has an end stage terminal disease that is so painful and all they want to do is end. It is still not them wanting to end their life. Yeah, if they could save their life, they would. They don't want to and they don't want to end their life.

  They want to end their pain. I was talking with Phil and we kind of came to this conversation and afterwards I'm sitting there and just thinking about it and this kind of epiphany came to me. What happened was my body wouldn't let me die because my body's entire purpose for existing is to keep me alive. That's why that's what its job is, is to help me survive to tomorrow and to try to do it in the best way they can.

  In fact, my body has been doing that every single day since the day I was born. My body is the greatest ally I have ever had in my entire life. The fact that I had would abuse substances to the extreme degree, that I abused them on a daily basis. And I never, ever, ever, ever once had a situation where my life almost ended until I intentionally tried to do it.

  My body was like, we are never going to give up on you. Right? My body is an ally. And what you do with allies is you give them what they need to give you the best opportunity. Period. End of story. If that's the case, restriction and abstinence will never work. Right? Right. You you restrict an adversary, you aid an ally.

  00;32;27;19

  Adam

  And so what I needed to do was figure out what are the things that I have to actually go out and do not avoid what are the actions that are going to start to care for my body's desire to create health, wellness and a sense of feeling alive. And that's really where this kind of, okay, well, if I'm going to do this, what is the right most accurate thing I can do?

  And that's where I kind of came on to plant based nutrition and and really kind of moving away from the the traditional AA model of counting days I didn't use and and avoiding and all that kind of stuff. And I really found myself attracted to thought leaders like Dr. Gabor, Marty and people like Johann Hari in the work that he wrote about as a journalist with all these other thought leaders, and very much so found myself in the presence of of probably the one other than Rip Esselstyn, who was the individual who mentored me into a plant based lifestyle.

  There's probably only one other person who has had more of a profound impact on my life than anyone in the world in terms of their work. And that's Doug. While Doug, while is an evolutionary psychologist who wrote the book called The Pleasure Trap, which is essentially explaining the biological mechanisms that compel behavior, that what we have is we have a a psychologic and motivational architecture that responds to the environment that we're in and is able to make very specific and very accurate decisions based on that environment.

  And the stimulus within that environment in order to survive environments, if it is appropriate to our natural history and our natural behavior that once you start to introduce supernormal stimulus, a stimulus that is not supposed to be there, that is not representative of that animal's natural history, natural behavior, that animal will now run the threat of making decisions that are potentially fatal, all the while thinking and feeling like it's doing a very successful thing.

  00;34;21;08

  Adam

  And that's really useful. So what that help me figure out is what I need to do is I don't need to be a more disciplined person. I need to build a very disciplined environment. If I can build a very specific, a very appropriate environment that is conducive to the the well-being of my motivational architecture and to the well-being of my psychology, I am a lot more likely to engage in an appropriate choice that suits not only my short term goals, but my long term goals without discipline.

  Willpower is just it's a nonsense trap.

  00;35;03;28

  Brenda

  Hey, did you know how Extreme Community is a nonprofit organization? And we are so happy to provide financial scholarships to over a quarter of the parents who use our services. We have our first ever giving campaign happening right now. And if you're a podcast listener and you've benefited from the content here, we would love it if you'd help us keep this as a free resource for parents.

  We're all about action and hope. Stream community and over 84% of our members say they've noticed an improvement in their relationship with their child since joining, and over 69% believe their child has accepted help in one form or another as a result of their experience with us. So we know lives are being changed and we want to be able to help even more parents.

  If you're able to give to our Year of Hope campaign, please go to Hope Stream Community Forego Donate to Learn More. Thank you. Now back to the show. I wanted to just go back for a second when you talked about architecting your environment so that you weren't necessarily restricting yourself and having to, you know, lean on willpower to not use today.

  I wonder if you could just give us some insight into what does a what does an architected environment look like for somebody who's new in recovery?

  00;36;30;22

  Adam

  So first and foremost, you have to understand that nothing about change requires you to be comfortable with it. Okay. So there's there's always going to be moments when you're in the process of recovery where the ability to do the thing, you know, you need to do is going to be accompanied by an incredible and extraordinary, extraordinary amount of resistance and discomfort.

  So you have to have some degree of being willing to be comfortable, being very uncomfortable if you're not willing to go to that place and live there for a short period of time and know that it's going to pass recovery always feel like a thing that is impossible to you. And so identifying a reason why you're willing to be in that place for one hour or 20 minutes, however long it is, until you move through it, identifying reason, a reason or reason why, why it matters so much is really important.

  We hear this all the time. Identify your why, but most of the time people identify their why. By the negative consequence, no one stops using. They start doing something else. Yes. So the question should be why do you want to do something other than use? Yes, likely what they'll say, Well, I don't want to die. Yeah, obviously. Well, then the next question is why not?

  And they'll go on to another layer. They'll say, well, because, you know, I would really I have people in my life that matter a lot to me and I want to be here. Why? Well, because, you know, I've got grandkids now. I've got kids now and I want to see them. Why do you want to see them? At a certain point in time, you're going to get to an answer that looks like this because I love X.

  00;38;18;14

  Adam

  That's the end.

  00;38;19;18

  Brenda

  Yeah.

  00;38;20;12

  Adam

  Because I love them, Because I love my family, Because I love the ability to share my self with those people or with that thing or with that action. Your Y has to be rooted in a loving and meaningful bond that gives you the experience that life is meaningful. Negative consequences are wonderful things. The reason they're so wonderful is because they let you know something incredibly meaningful and important in your life is being threatened.

  Something that matters the world to you is at risk. Whatever that thing is, that's your Y. You're not removing the consequence. You're protecting the loving and meaningful bond. So really digging down, really getting yourself to investigate what is that loving and meaningful thing? What is the loving and meaningful bond and likely bonds that are going to help you make specific decisions that get you towards protection of those things?

  I think you and Harry has a great list. He has about nine what he calls causes of depression, and he'll help heal wisdom as just disconnections from, X, Y, and Z. And I think we can we can flip that. We can say that there's about 5 to 9 loving and meaningful bonds that are important to feel meaningfully alive.

  And those are a loving and meaningful bond with yourself, both physically and emotionally, that you want to show up and be present for every single day. A loving and meaningful bond with people in your life that you want to show up and be present for every single day. A loving and meaningful bond with a purpose that you can share within a community of shared respect that you want to be present for every single day.

  00;40;09;23

  Adam

  A loving and meaningful bond with the natural world. If you want to show up and be present for every single day, a loving and meaningful bond with with meaningful work that you can show up and be present for every single day and a loving and meaningful bond with a future. It feels safe and makes sense that you can show up and work for every single day.

  When those loving and meaningful bonds are fully connected. The desire to show up and be truly present is incredibly high. It matters a lot to you, and so the opportunity to use it may not be less, but the desire to use will be greatly diminished. The reason for that is using will remove you from being present for those loving and meaningful bonds that mean the most to you.

  00;41;00;04

  Brenda

  Yeah.

  00;41;01;18

  Adam

  So for me, I needed to be the architect of a body that for the first time ever felt like a safe, secure and hopeful place to be. So how do we start to build an environment that allows that to take place over the course of time? I mentioned the name Rip Esselstyn is the author of the original book was called The Engine to Diet.

  He's the founder of Plant Strong. His dad is the famous Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn from the Cleveland Clinic, who worked with Bill Clinton to help him reverse his cardiovascular disease. And RIP has been the feature of documentary for seven years, is executive producer of the Game Changers. This guy is a multi New York Times best selling author and health advocate and a real expert in using plant based nutrition to reverse chronic disease and individuals.

  And I say I don't know anything about nutrition or anything about mental health or addiction, but I can put food on a plate. So I'm going to put the food that that guy says onto my plate and let's just see what happens. So great. Now I know what I want to do. Next step is figuring out not only how to do it, but how to do it with ease and repeatability.

  Right? You're going to be the architect of a specific environment, ease and repeatability have to be built into the environment where you will be attracted to your old behavior more often than you want. Remember, every instinct in you is trying to figure out how to get the most for the least. How do I get the most pleasure from the least amount of pain and the least amount of energy in environments of scarcity and competition, which is the environment that we spent The majority of our evolutionary story as a species in a psychology of more for less, will always survive to tomorrow.

  00;42;42;08

  Adam

  It is a very good psychology and motivational architecture to have is one that's trying to get as much as it can for as little as it can. So we are really attracted to that kind of opportunity. So if your new behaviors cost you more time and energy than your old behaviors, you're going to want your old behaviors more often than is good for you.

  So instead of trying to figure out how many recipes can I make, I wanted to figure out what were the easiest foods to make. So I found out microwavable, oatmeal, canned beans, microwavable rice, fruit that I could just grab like bananas and apples and berries and stuff like that. And I wanted my environment swatted with them all the time.

  I wanted it to take no more than 5 minutes to make a meal. I can eat it in ten and clean it up in five. All right. So that meant I am it. All I need is 20 minutes and I am going to have the most successful opportunity for me. And I also taught myself the kitchen is only I only go into the kitchen to make food.

  I've decided I'm going to eat. I don't go into it to figure out what I want to eat. That is, that is a very attractive environment to make a choice I don't want to make, especially when I'm living with ten other guys. Yes.

  00;43;51;21

  Brenda

  I know. So say you were making these decisions while you're newly in sober living, right? This is our launch into your new life.

  00;43;59;25

  Adam

  Yeah. And so I had written out a plan, I remember. And the first week I was there, I wrote out a meal plan, and I was trying to think back to, like, Rip. And I had heard him. I went to a seven day retreat with him and my dad had dragged me to and I remembered some of the foods that they made there.

  And I was like, okay, they had a bunch of stuff for breakfast, but I remember they had oatmeal every single day. Great oatmeal for breakfast bread. Gosh, I remember they talked about rice and beans about more so than anything I can remember. So rice and beans for for lunch with some kind of, you know, salsa or something like that.

  And frozen veggies like peas, carrots, corn that I could heat up and throw in there. And then for dinner, I remember we had one day where it was sweet potatoes with lentils and and I was like great potatoes and lentils. That's easy. I can I can microwave the potato. I can take canned lentils. Import on. This is so simple.

  Fantastic. That's day one. Yeah. I looked and there's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'll have to write. I'm like, What? So I just took my pencil. I drew a line from Monday all the way through Sunday with an arrow at the end of it and above it wrote, Repeat, I love it. And I was just like, what I had done was I had and I didn't know this at the time, but I had employed a strategy that's actually really, really very, very effective, which is make it so simple and obvious that it's nearly impossible not to do the healing thing.

  00;45;22;20

  Adam

  I knew exactly what I was going to eat when I was going to eat, how long it was going to take to make it the amount of resources required to complete the task. So that's really useful. A lot of people want to try to define the rest of their life to go, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be sober for the rest of my life.

  I eat a healthy diet for the rest of my life. I'm going to tell you right now that it's actually a very detrimental thing to do. And the reason for that is your brain cannot conceptualize that amount of time.

  00;45;48;05

  Brenda

  No.

  00;45;49;13

  Adam

  In fact, it's very difficult for your brain to conceptualize beyond four weeks. There's a lot of data on this. If I was to go to someone and they say, Hey, Adam, can you help me adopt a plant based diet? I'm really curious to do that. I go, Sure, right. I'm going to give you these recipes now. Do this forever.

  What's happening is their brain is really trying to conceptualize how much time, energy and resources is required to do the entire task. And it can't. And it's trying to figure this out and it's getting very frustrated. And then any time that individual makes a choice that doesn't look like their goal, meaning that they make a choice, it looks like animal products or some degree or hyper processed junk food.

  What they're doing is they're sending a signal. They're sending a signal to their to their brain that says, see, we can't do this for the rest of our life too hard. And we keep seeing that we can't do this. We should just not do this. If I was to say to that same person, hey, here's what you're going to do.

  You're going to eat oatmeal fruit every morning for seven days. What's happening is the brain is like, okay, that's like one or two containers from the store of oats. I just grab some strawberries and blueberries. I don't know exactly how much to buy. I also know probably takes like 5 minutes to cook the oats every morning, so I probably need to give myself about 20 minutes every morning.

  00;47;01;22

  Adam

  You are creating a real sense of actual resource and time management that's achievable for that individual. And now the brain and the cell feels safe. You've also giving yourself an endpoint the end of the seven days, and if I didn't like that, I could do something different. Right? Right. And allows them to engage in the behavior in the sense of I'm just trying to see what kind of value exists here.

  Yeah, I'm just trying to get a little sense of does this seem like a good thing to continue doing or not? That's valuable because now they're scientists. Now they're explorers. Now they're not trying to find out if they're going to be failures or successes. They're trying to find out if this seems accurate or not. And that's really useful.

  00;47;43;05

  Brenda

  Yeah, well, you're building that self efficacy just one day at a time. Or it's like, Oh, okay, I did that yesterday. I did it today. It worked. Yeah.

  00;47;52;14

  Adam

  I told people that the first months of my recovery were a series of two week experiments. That's all I was doing was running two week experiments. And then I take a look back those two weeks and go to what I added to my life. It seemed to me moving me in the direction that I want to go. And does it seem to be easy enough to do?

  If the answer is yes, I'm now motivated to repeat that experiment and see if I get similar or better results.

  00;48;14;20

  Brenda

  Yeah, I would love to go back. I think when you were talking about the why and the five or six reasons, you know, and things that people need to build those connections that they need to build. I'm really curious because as I'm hearing you talk about those, it's making so much sense. And then I'm thinking about my son and all my my I call my work kids that are in active addiction or dependance.

  And I don't know that they could think through that.

  00;48;46;27

  Adam

  Yeah.

  00;48;47;11

  Brenda

  So how does that walk us through? How does somebody get to the point where they can start thinking about those things?

  00;48;53;19

  Adam

  Yeah, because that that's a really good point you bring up because in that early stage of recovery, the idea of figuring out how to reestablish those meaningful connections is like, I don't even know how I lost them, right? Like, I can't identify the day when they left, right. You know, the question of how did we get here?

  00;49;11;06

  Brenda

  Or those people aren't even talking to me anymore, Right? Like, I have completely fractured all of those relationships.

  00;49;17;13

  Adam

  Exactly. And so, you know, that is what what I would tell this individual is to number one, I think this is so important that for individuals who are in the in the midst of substance use disorder, who are dealing with crippling anxiety and depression because they can they consistently co-occur, is that everything that you feel, everything that you're feeling and everything that you struggle with makes complete sense.

  That you are not an example of psychology gone wrong. Your situation and the way that you're behaving in response to that situation is not a failure of you. It is likely a failure of the environment that you either found yourself in or unknowingly crafted for yourself in response to things that had happened in your life. What is occurring for you at this moment and the sense of what your future looks like at this point in time?

  The majority of people, their use looks and feels to them exactly like self care. Yeah, it is a misguided self care act and it's misguided because the stimulus that they're using is so intense it creates a pleasure response that is so far outside the bounds of what is considered reasonable for our natural history and natural behavior, that it disrupts the balance of our ability to make short term, intermediate and long term course of action decisions.

  So we're not able to recognize that in five years this might be a real problem. We might be now displacing things that are valuable for our long term goals by introducing this supernormal stimulus. I'll give you an example, Doug. While in his talk, the pleasure trapping is a TED talk. He shares an example of what happens if you go outside and you leave your porch light on, or if you go outside and you let your porch light on what you're going to notice.

  00;51;07;13

  Adam

  The majority of times you're going to notice that moths are fluttering too. That light. And the reason that they're fluttering light is because they're actually designed by nature to use the brightest light in the sky is navigation. They use celestial objects as navigation, but when the brightest light in the sky is now your porch light, this animal is now its its guidance system is misguided.

  And it's going to hit this light and it's going to flutter down and then it's going to hit it again. It's going to hit it again. It's going to hit again and eventually it's going to die. And what we can do is if we were to look and look at this situation from a subjective point of view, what we're going to recognize is that what is occurring is it by introducing a supernormal stimulus, a stimulus that is not supposed to be in the environment, a supernormal stimulus that is not representative of that animal's natural history and natural behavior, That animal now ended up making decisions that were fatal the whole time, thinking and feeling like

  it was making incredibly successful choices. That's really useful for that individual who's struggling with substance use. The stimulus that has been introduced in the environment and then consistently introduced in the environment is so beyond the experience of what stimulus looked like for us as a species that it feels so right. It feels like such a successful thing to do, that it is incredibly attractive to your motivational system and.

  You're going to feel an incredible sense of compulsion towards that because you're thinking and feeling like you're being biologically successful when in fact you're self-destructive. That is not because you don't have enough willpower. It is not because you are an undisciplined human and is not because you have a lack of moral character. It is because the environment has been so profoundly shifted away from what is easy for your guidance system, your psychological and your motivational architecture to figure out how to do well so that a person who's like, how do I how do I get back to like a sense of homeostasis and start to reestablish connection?

  00;53;07;28

  Adam

  Number one, you have to reorganize your environment. You have to reorganize your mind to look enough like the life you want to live. If that's a healthy plant, rich life that allows you to move every single day, you've got to craft an environment for yourself within your home that looks like your goals. This will allow your neurotransmitters, your dopamine receptors, and your dopamine is your guidance system.

  So a lot of people talk about dopamine in a negative context. Don't do anything. It stimulates dopamine. And you want to do that. Now you're and you do dopamine. Is it dopamine is the specific neurotransmitter that helped us figure out how to how to survive environments of scarcity and to do really well. It is a guidance system that is helping you figure out what's the right move to make.

  But because the modern environment has introduced stimulus that have responded or causes your dopamine system to respond with such intense lifts in dopamine circuitry, your receptors have defended themselves against that intense stimulus and they've doubled the receptivity you have to restore dopamine sensitive in the way that you do. That is to craft an environment where you don't have very intense stimulus.

  Essentially, you're going to put these receptors under deprivation. And so the question is, well, how long does it take to restore dopamine sensitivity? Well, the studies on this show that it's about a four month journey. But here's the cool thing. It's not a linear path. 80% of that journey occurs within the first two weeks. So if you can craft an environment that looks exactly like the life you want to live and live in that environment for two weeks, be comfortable being uncomfortable.

  00;54;43;16

  Adam

  Just be in that environment for two weeks. After those two weeks, your response to that environment is going to look and feel incredibly different. It is going to be a seemingly less difficult place to live in. You're you're going to be guided to decisions in a way that didn't feel like that on day one. And you're going to notice this seems like a good place to be.

  00;55;05;04

  Brenda

  Mm. That is. I love the the moth and the porch light because I think it's it's a good reminder to for parents to when you're watching the behavior of your child and you're scratching your head wondering how can my how can my little moth be hitting the porch light.

  00;55;26;29

  Adam

  Yeah.

  00;55;27;15

  Brenda

  It's like, well, that cocaine or that, that fentanyl or whatever it is that THC, that's the porch light and course they are hitting their head against it because that's what they like. That's how it works.

  00;55;41;20

  Adam

  And then we have to take a step further from there because we can we can blame the stimulus 100% if we want to. But we also have to recognize that what will occur, that situation will occur for a certain amount of the population, and it won't for another amount of the population. I mean, there's going to be a compulsion and attraction to it no matter what.

  But Professor Bruce Alexander in the 1970s ran a study called Rat Park. Maybe you've heard of Rat Park. Yeah. So Rat Park is a great study because what he did was he observed the rat in the cage study. When the rat in the cage said he was, he put a rat in a cage and you give it food and water or you give it drugs.

  And what it's going to do is once it figures out how to get the drugs, what it's going to do is it's just going to do the drugs every single day and eventually it's going to die. And that's kind of what they use to craft this story about addiction. That addiction is a response to the chemical hooks in substances and that if you just did it long enough that you're going to you're going to become addicted to it and you'll avoid the rest of your life and you'll die.

  Bruce Alexander said, Hang on a second. They put a rat in an empty cage. He has no option other than to just eat food or do drugs. That's not life. Why don't we simulate heaven for rats? And so he created this thing called rat Park, which essentially was having a rat. There was all the things that rats would do in the meaningful experience of life, of being a rat.

  00;57;00;25

  Adam

  There was, you know, things to dig in, tunnels to go through. There, loads of colored balls and food that it loved, and there were other rats to have a meaningful experience. What he noticed was when he introduced cocaine into Rat Park, none of the rats ever used it compulsively. None of them ever habitually use it, and none of them ever overdosed.

  So what if addiction isn't a response to the chemical hooks, what if it's an adaptation to your cage? What if it is the most appropriate response to a life cut off from what makes life feel meaningful? If you are that individual who is experiencing the severance of meaningful purpose and meaningful connection in your life, that porch light is going to be the most beautiful thing you've ever seen in your life.

  00;57;50;03

  Brenda

  Yeah.

  00;57;51;08

  Adam

  If you are a person who has either currently has established connection, meaningful connection in life, or has reestablished meaningful connection, that Porch Light is just going to be a pretty thing to look at every now and then. It's not going to be the same compulsive attraction that's really important. So to answer your original question, how do we start to do this?

  Number one thing is we have to understand the response we had to that porch light in both situations is appropriate. It makes sense if you are someone who looks at that porch light and goes, Oh my gosh, all I want is more of that porch light. That is a signal that says there are things in your life that need to be cared for.

  You are a person who is different from someone else. You're not that individual who is the born addict who is just always going to have this problem. What's what's happening likely is that there's a reasonable and appropriate amount of connection and meaning in your life that is not being cared for. So we have to start figuring out what's the first meaningful bonding connection that we can start to care for and the best way possible.

  And so it might be your help, it might be being of service. You could just go start volunteering for different things and find something that kind of lights you up. It could be it could be learning to do something value. Learn to play music, learn to speak a new language, gain some kind of value that could be valuable to other people.

  00;59;11;25

  Brenda

  When I think about that porch light, it it helps when I think about shame and how parents often try to shame and sort of blame our kids. Why can't you see what you're doing? And I don't know what your experience was with your parents while they were observing you going through this, but I think we're so desperate as parents to find a way into a conversation that will be impactful.

  And I think often what we end up doing is shaming and blaming, not not intentionally. I think we can say and do things that we think are being really helpful. Maybe like your dad was thinking he was being really helpful because he cares so much for you and he doesn't want to see his son end up, you know, having a heart attack or whatever.

  So maybe talk a little bit about some of the things that you think having been through that experience parents might be doing or saying that not be coming across with the right intention or that could be more helpful.

  01;00;15;09

  Adam

  First and foremost, if you're someone who's a parent or a loved one who cares for someone who is struggling with substance use disorder, you have to really take a step back because you're not going to understand what it feels like for them when they use. And the reason is because you don't know what it feels like for them when they don't.

  And so for them their use in their mind is a very meaningful and valuable part of their life. It is the only way that they can completely and truly care for a pain that cannot be cared for immediately in the way that it does with substance use on a daily basis. Russell Brand has a beautiful quote about addiction.

  He says The priority of every addict is to pacify the passage of time through some kind of purchased relief. That's a beautiful way to express addiction. And when you pair it with your own Hari's quote about addiction, he said, What if addiction is about not wanting to be present in your life because your life is too painful a place to be?

  If can understand that for the person who is a witness to someone struggling, you have to understand that more so than a solution to their use. People who are struggling with that kind of pain want to know that they have not been forgotten by the people who matter the most to them. We don't want you to solve our problems.

  01;01;49;13

  Adam

  We want to be reminded that if ever we figure out a way to not use this, we're still welcomed back into that life that includes you. That is, there's a very specific way that you can do that. You can call this person if they're not an immediate family member or if they are if they live with you, you can just say to them, first and foremost, I love you and I'm going to love you.

  Whether you keep using or you don't. I don't know how to solve this problem, but if you'd like, I can sit with you and we can help figure this thing out together, because I don't want you to be alone or feel alone. What you're telling them is that their use isn't a thing that causes you to see them as less valuable, that they are not less important to you because they use that what you want more so than anything is for them to to remember that that is who they will always be.

  And I would really like it if we could start this conversation today, you know, because there's there's a thread. There's a that's the thing. Why? The only reason you want them to stop is because you don't want them to you don't want to lose them. Otherwise it doesn't matter. And so what's important is letting them know that they matter that is the most important thing.

  You're not an expert, even if you are if they're your child, you're not an expert, okay? You don't get to be an expert. And their parent I'm sorry. You don't be the parent that says my job is to let you know you're loved no matter what. And let's figure out together. I'm not the person who's going to figure this out.

  01;03;37;06

  Adam

  We're going to go together. I'm going to walk this journey with you. I will be waiting for you at the end and these doors will be open and you have a place to come home to, if that's what you say that is the most. And they may say no and you have to love them anyways. You have to set boundaries.

  Boundaries are important right If their presence in your life is a threat to you and to other people that are boundaries that have to be set. But I find that the threat mentality, the kind of intervention where you say what we're going to do is we're going to take this lingering threat of loving, meaningful bonding your life and we're going to threaten it unless you get sober.

  Like that's a very dangerous thing to do.

  01;04;11;08

  Brenda

  Yes.

  01;04;12;02

  Adam

  You should speak from your heart that remember that the use isn't the problem. The problem is you might lose them. That's what that's what you need to let them know. That's what's worrying you. There. Use doesn't bother you. The fact that their use can cost them their place in your life, that bothers you.

  01;04;29;11

  Brenda

  That's a huge distinction and I think really, really important.

  01;04;32;27

  Adam

  We have to stop asking addicts, why won't you stop? I think it's a dangerous thing to ask them, How do we get you to stop or you need to stop using or why won't you stop? A much more valuable question to ask that person is I want to know why you're use means so much to you, right? Tell me why your use makes so much sense for you.

  If that person is able to answer that question, we have a much greater opportunity of understanding which direction to go because there are ways to abstain from use that aren't very valuable to your long term health. Right. I can. I can say, hey, well, great. Guess what? You know, it's really great for down regulating withdrawal symptoms of heroin donuts.

  This is true. Yeah. I don't want them eating donuts all day. Every. Every day. There's still threat there. What I would really want to know is why for you is use such a valuable and important thing to hold on to so tightly. Why does it make so much sense? That's that's a better question to ask.

  01;05;40;04

  Brenda

  Do you you could have answered that while you were actively using if somebody had sat down with you and asked you that.

  01;05;46;25

  Adam

  I don't know if I could have immediately, but I wouldn't have felt as offended because why won't you stop means that what they're saying is, why can't you be like me right? And it's really important to recognize when we think about it from an from the standpoint of evolutionary psychology, there's an aspect called the ego trap. And the ego trap is essentially that's someone asking that question, Why won't you stop?

  So for the person who's using and is caught up in their use and their end stages of substance use disorder, when they look out outside a window and they see their life and they see their families, what they see is people who spend all day long not using and their use cost them no energy, it cost them no effort.

  It's a very effortless thing for them not to use. So for that individual who can't stop using, if they were to just stop using, not only would it, not only would it require extraordinary effort to achieve, it would not be something worthy of applause because people in their life do that every single day. Right.

  01;06;44;02

  Brenda

  Welcome to the club.

  01;06;45;17

  Adam

  Welcome to the club. Welcome back to regular life. Yeah. So the idea of asking someone, why can't you stop is literally throwing that ego trap on top of them. Yes, because they're going to say, I don't know. And what they're saying is, I know you do. I'm not as good as you. Clearly, I don't know how to do life instead of, Hey, look, if I were in your situation, my life would feel incredibly overwhelming.

  How you how you deal with that discomfort every day is a marvel to me. All I want to know is why does your use mean so much to you? Why is it makes so much sense? Why? For if it were me, would it make so much sense for me to do the exact same thing?

  01;07;29;18

  Brenda

  Yeah.

  01;07;30;07

  Adam

  Now we're on the same level. Now we're the same person. That's. That's important.

  01;07;35;01

  Brenda

  The insight there is just so turned on its head because the natural thing is to just say, Why can't you just stop?

  01;07;45;04

  Adam

  Because for us, for someone who's witnessing someone, someone who doesn't deal with substance use disorder, use makes no sense. Correct? Use is not something I would want to do every single day because my life is something I want to be present for. So what we have to understand is what does the situation look like? Where, if it were me, it would make sense to me.

  I need you to tell me why does your use make sense? Because if it does, what that means is if I were you, I would do the exact same thing. I want to know why? Because I don't know. And you're not broken. You're an incredibly strong person. You're your amazing person. And I don't understand. It must make sense.

  So let's. Let's. Let's. Let's be the same person here.

  01;08;23;29

  Brenda

  Right? Right. Do you think there are some inflection points in this journey where this conversation might be more successful than other times?

  01;08;36;08

  Adam

  Yeah. So I think, you know, if an individual goes in the rehab hospital setting, that's not the place to have this conversation. It really isn't. Rehab sucks. And the reason why does is because it's abrupt and it's immediate. And everything that you do to soothe your life is halted. You're forced into an environment that that doesn't look like an environment of your choosing.

  You're forced into having conversations that are very difficult to have when you move to the next stage, when you go into intensive outpatient therapy or you go into a partial hospitalization program or you go into a sober living facility, that's where you really want to start having those conversations. And the reason for that is that's when you have control over crafting an environment of your own.

  You don't have that opportunity in rehab. You are in someone's specific environment, can't be altered. And when you are when you're trying to answer that question of why does my use make sense to me, you want to be able to take action on it. You want to be able to start to alter your environment to look more like a life we're used Doesn't make sense.

  We're used as a far less necessary thing to do. Yeah, and that's really important. If we look at someone who's caught up in substance use and we were to ask them about those loving and meaningful bonds, they're likely going to say that the majority of, if not all of them have been severed. And so there's nothing that they feel like they want to show up and be present for.

  01;09;57;25

  Adam

  They don't have anything valuable to be present for. And the disconnection of those loving and meaningful bonds is a painful experience. And use soothes the passage of time. And it's and it's easy and it's repeatable and it's attractive. So of course we're going to do it. But if we take that same person and we restore those meaningful bonds and we're to put them in a situation where they're in a room with a person now, they're fully connected.

  They've got a connect to a loving, a meaningful bond with themselves, with other people in the life, with a purpose they share within a community of shared respect, with meaningful work, with the natural world in a future that makes sense. We put them in a room and unknowingly we slip into their water and they drink it and they do heroin.

  They're going to have the same euphoric experience that anyone would have on heroin. And after the heroin experience, we're going say, Hey, did you notice you were on heroin? They would go, Oh, yeah, I noticed something. I didn't know it's heroin. And I was that was intense. Do you want more? I need you as much as you want.

  They're far less likely to say yes. And the reason for that is they are aware that using heroin removes their ability to be present for what is so important to them they might use. But I think that we have to stop defining recovery by how perfectly a person can abstain from use. Yes We need to start defining recovery by how how important being present in their life matters to them.

  01;11;19;08

  Adam

  If they're a person who goes out on, you know, whatever, something extraordinary happens, like a tragedy occurs and and they get really upset and they take a shot of liquor and then they go, Dang it, I don't want to do that anymore. That's not their recovery failing. That's a recovery. Winning the recognition that that's not where they wanted to go.

  They would have liked to have done it differently. And so they will next time.

  01;11;40;26

  Brenda

  Yes, absolutely.

  01;11;42;14

  Adam

  Recovery is not the absence of substances. Recovery is the intentional reconnection to a life that feels like a safe, secure and hopeful place to be. So also at the same time has a sense that their future is an equally or even greater secure and a hopeful place to be. Their use is a lot less necessary thing to do.

  That's what recovery is creating an idea that the reason why you use is because you're an addict and you always will be is a very damaging and destructive thing to do.

  01;12;16;16

  Brenda

  I just want to shift for a few minutes before I let you go to food. I think it is so fascinating that food became your really a gateway to your new life to recovery. And it was also part of the the, you know, origin of of where a lot of the trouble came from. And we talked a little bit about your first two weeks with oatmeal.

  01;12;41;06

  Adam

  And yeah yeah that ended up being nine years it oatmeal every morning for nine years straight.

  01;12;50;07

  Brenda

  What I don't want to do is have all this information and then parents go and they go to their kid, they go, okay, you need to eat oatmeal. You need to do this. Right. We don't want that. But so my question would be, because I always think it's very impactful when our kids observe us, just as you observed your dad.

  01;13;09;15

  Adam

  Right.

  01;13;09;27

  Brenda

  So if a parent was listening and saying, hi, this food thing is kind of interesting, May I? Maybe I've been kind of toying with my diet and what I'm putting in my body. How could a parent potentially use food as a either a conversation starter or as a as an entry point with their child? Because I'm going to tell you that you are not going to go tell your child you have to serve you.

  In fact, they do it because it's probably not going to be well-received. But maybe give us some thoughts on on how could we use food in our struggle? Because parents are really struggling.

  01;13;46;12

  Adam

  So, number one, remember, food is an act of service to something, right? Whether it's to your longevity, whether it's to how you wake up in performing sports, whether it's, you know, because the the the composition of an individual's diet depends both on their preferred immediate preferred lifestyle and what type of future they want to have. And so when you're when you're talking with kids, I'll tell you, number one, there's not a nine year old in the world that cares about their cholesterol.

  So we can't have that conversation. We can't have. Well, did you know that a plant based diet lowers your cholesterol? It's not going to work. They're not going to know what you're talking about. What you want to do is identify what is it that your child does every single day that they love. And it can be you know, you can say, well, my kid stays inside all day and he plays video games.

  And that's great. That's wonderful. That's the thing. I'm not saying that video games played all day is a good thing, but there's something that matters to them. Yeah, you need to find a way to help that individual child form a meaningful bond between what they love to do and how food makes it better. Mhm. So what you can say is let's say you're your son or your daughter loves and I mean loves to go swimming or it's summer so they just want to go swimming in the pool all day long, all day long, all day long.

  Could say things like, Hey you know what, I read this thing, not really sure if that's true. This is important. This is a tactic. Yes. Not really sure if it's true, but I heard that if you eat oatmeal in the morning, it improves your ability to swim. Maybe you want to try and experiment with me for a week.

  01;15;30;28

  Adam

  We'll both eat oatmeal every morning. Then we'll go swimming, like in the afternoon and see if it's any different. What we're doing is, number one, you're using a very specific tactic, and I call it the it seems for now, not sure method. Okay. And I got this from Doug. Leo, What you're doing is you're not you're not threatening this child's perception of the foods that they eat and love, thinking that they may that it may have an impact on how they swim because your child might might think that those cereal that they eat with that man on it might be making them feel like that.

  And they might think So we're not going to threaten that. Right. Right. Number one, you have to let them know you are not sure about this thing. I am not an expert. Not sure if this is going to work. Seems like it might be really interesting to try and I want to try it for now. It's a short term deal.

  You want to try this for like a week experiment?

  01;16;24;06

  Brenda

  That's a great word.

  01;16;24;29

  Adam

  Experiment. Exactly. What you're doing is you're not making it seem like what they already do is the wrong thing. If it does work out, your kid could be the one who tells all of their friends that he figured this thing out. Not that it's what your dad or your mom told had to do in the morning. No, no, no.

  I ran an experiment. I ran an experiment. And I figured this thing out on my own. My dad told me about it. He Didn't even finish reading this article. He wasn't even really sure I did this experiment, and I figured it out right. Oatmeal makes me feel great when I swim. If you give the child a sense of they're the one that figured it out, then they really like the thing.

  If you tell them they have to do it because you think it's good for them, they're likely to rebel against that thing.

  01;17;09;24

  Brenda

  Yes Oh, for sure.

  01;17;12;01

  Adam

  It's it's what that tactic is used specifically for adults who are adopting a new dietary lifestyle because we get rebelled against by our current social group. So when they come and say, Yeah, well you guys, I'm adopting a whole food plant based diet. And the reason why I'm doing that is because the healthiest on the planet in reverse is disease is what you're telling everyone in your group, is that, guess what?

  I figured out that everything that you do is wrong.

  01;17;36;15

  Brenda

  Right?

  01;17;37;15

  Adam

  And there's a sense of order, subconscious sense of ranking within a group based on how much of value what you do offers other people, and you're threatening that sense of order of everyone. So they're going to have to go back to, Oh, where do you get your protein, Where do you do this? They don't want to know. They just want to make it seem like your thing isn't valuable to everyone else in the group.

  So the best thing to do is be like, Hey, guys, come down. You lunch. They notice you're having rice and be more you. Hey, what's with the rice and bimbo? I don't know. I heard this thing. Not even sure if it's even, like, good idea, but I've been doing it for a couple of days. It seems to be working and I was going to try it for now.

  Then they don't care. You can tell them it's the best thing in the world. You're not even sure you want to do it forever. You're trying it for now. And in a week ago, you guys guess what their thought is. In a week when it doesn't work, then you're going to come out your guys that direction. Not a good idea.

  You're just disarming everybody.

  01;18;28;19

  Brenda

  Yes. Oh, my goodness. Well, I have to let you go, but I just think there's so many golden gems in here for parents to hear and for young to hear as well if they're listening. So if you had to sort of give one thought to a parent who's listening, who's got a 17 year old who's still in the Adderall at high school or, you know, vaping every morning before they go to school, what would you say?

  01;18;56;21

  Adam

  Well, number one, just it for that person that you're witnessing, what they do to them makes complete sense. There's something about the world that they live in that doesn't feel like a safe, secure and hopeful place to be. Something it that doesn't make sense and that you seems to care for that lack of sense or that lack of comfort or that lack of safety.

  It cares for it in a way that feels like self-love and self-care. So to them, it doesn't look as crazy. When someone is is hurting, they're going to do almost anything they can to be something other than what they are, which is in pain. And they're going to want to do that with the greatest amount of ease and repeatability and substance use is an amazing way to do that.

  It's very attractive to that desire to soothe passage of time. So for your if you're a parent or your friend or your loved one is witnessing someone, the number one thing you can do to them is just remind them that they matter to you, reminding them that they matter whether they're using or you're not. So if they feel like they're losing grips on this thing, that you would be the person that they could come to and talk it because you are not going to judge them for their use, that you are going to love them whether they use it or not.

  I've lost like seven friends since getting sober. One of them, I didn't die of a relapse. Unfortunately, he died from complications in surgery. His name was David Clark. He was an alcoholic who weighed over £300 and he found a plant based lifestyle and distance running and became one of the most accomplished ultra runners in the world before he had an injury that landed him in surgery.

  01;20;35;25

  Adam

  And then complications to surgery cost him his life. He had the most beautiful quote I've ever heard. We all know the saying that if you want to be happy, you should live like it's the last day of your life. David said. If you think about that, that doesn't actually make sense in terms of longevity. Because if you were to live like it's the last of your life, I certainly wouldn't go to work, certainly wouldn't worry about getting groceries.

  Certain were certainly wouldn't worry about how I eat, wouldn't do any of those things, wouldn't matter to me. If you really want to be happy, if you really want to have a meaningful experience, you should treat everyone you meet as if they were living the last day of their life. So I want you to consider that in the context of how you relate to your your child who's using if you had one day left with them, what would you say to keep them close to you?

  You would likely not talk about their substance use. You would likely, with the most intense desire and ability that you have expressed to them just how much they truly matter to you and how much their presence in your life matters to you, and how much their safety matters to you. And in that conversation would likely never even mention the word substance or drugs or anything like that.

  If you can interact with your your child from the standpoint of the importance, their presence in your life, not with the need to remove their substances from their life, they're likely to see you as a safe place to have a conversation about substances when they are ready to have that conversation. And that doesn't mean you should just let them use.

  01;22;25;02

  Adam

  Right? You should obviously create boundaries. You can create a sense of a of of wanting them to be in a safe place. But the reality is they're not around you all the time. You can't stop them from doing things. But what you can do is let them know you can create a sense that you are the person that they feel safest with.

  That's important.

  01;22;45;09

  Brenda

  Well, I can't think of a more beautiful way to end. Amazing conversation. Thank you so, so much. This is going to be a game changer for parents and I appreciate it so much.

  01;22;58;08

  Adam

  Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

  01;23;01;15

  Brenda

  Okay. That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane Gqom forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also want to download a free e-book I wrote. It's called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when My Son Was Misusing Drugs.

  It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda's income. Forget hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself.

  And I will meet you right back here next week.