Fathering With Accountability and Grace When Your Teen Struggles with Addiction, with Steve Andrews
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guests: Steve Andrews - Steve Andrews Therapy
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here
Want my weekly email for support during this difficult time? Click here to request it
Podcast support from:
HOPESTREAM COMMUNITY: Join our Year of Hope Giving Campaign
We provide connection, education and support for parents of kids misusing substances regardless of ability to pay. We need your help to keep young people healthy and create safer communities.
Learn more and make a tax-deductible donation here.
About this episode:
We’re kicking off National Recovery Month 2023 with an introduction to a very special person, Steve Andrews. Not only is Steve a podcast guest, he’s also the new host of our community for dads of kids misusing substances, The Woods. Steve and I go back several years when we used to work together in our previous lives in advertising. Through a series of related events we got reconnected and learned we had a LOT to catch up on. In this episode, Steve shares his journey to finding recovery, how his middle son struggled with his own addiction and how leaving the world of advertising to become a therapist has radically changed his life. Steve is real, raw and doesn’t hold back in sharing what parents - and dads in particular - need to hear about taking accountability for our actions in parenting, while at the same time giving ourselves the grace to know we do the best we can with what we have at any given time. It’s a must-listen episode in our four-week series to recognize the incredible power of recovery.
Episode resources:
Steve’s website
-
BRENDA
Hey, I am so excited to kick off a series of incredible episodes this month as we celebrate National Recovery Month. September is a time when we turn the dial up on sharing stories of people who've been in really bad and scary place in their lives and have come out on the other side with their health and wellness intact.
And to kick this month off. I am thrilled to introduce Steve Andrews to you. Steve is somewhat of a unicorn and that we've been looking for someone to step into the role of host in the Woods community. This is our online space for those who identify as dads, stepdad, male, co-parents and caregivers. And I will just tell you, it's not a normal job and it is one that very few people qualify for.
So as it almost always works out, the universe in a very roundabout way delivered Steve to my doorstep. But the most incredible thing about all of this is that I already knew him. We had worked together in a previous life when we were both in the advertising business, and he lives less than 30 minutes away from me. So the person that we had been searching high and low for was quite literally almost under my nose the entire time.
00;02;39;24
Brenda
You'll hear a bit about how Steve and I were struggling to cope with our kids substance use issues at the same time, and how we bonded over the challenge of keeping up our appearances at work when it felt like our lives were imploding all around us. You'll also hear how Steve now takes accountability for some of the ways that he showed up as a dad with his son who went on to struggle with substances.
And then he shares how his career went from working on creative teams for some of the biggest brands in the world to becoming a therapist and now host of The Woods. Again, I am so glad to be able to introduce you to this incredible human who is very human. He's a real guy who went through it and is still going through really difficult times in another area of his life and will be someone our members in the woods can feel free to open up with work through stuff with, and just be real together.
I can't wait for you to hear this one. Please take a listen to me and Steve Anders. Enjoy.
00;03;41;04
Steve
All right, let's do this.
00;03;44;12
Brenda
Steve, how bizarre is it that you and I were on a podcast talking about substance use and mental health and parenting and kids? I mean, in a billion years, could you have ever imagined this?
00;04;01;06
Steve
No, it's a really funny twist of events. But at the same time, it's so surprising and wonderful. You know, that's this is the twist. The twist ending. Who knows.
00;04;12;04
Brenda
Exactly? Or maybe it's the middle. I don't know. But yeah, the fact that you and I met, I don't even, you know, it's all a blur. But I want to say it was probably somewhere around 2016.
00;04;23;19
Steve
Yeah.
00;04;24;05
Brenda
16 ish in our other lives as advertising people, the fancy, shiny people that we used to be, at least I used to feel used to get dressed up every day. I used to wear heels. Yeah. None of that happens anymore. Well, occasionally it does, but yeah. So we've sort of transitioned from that life to you and I both have very different lives today, so we're going to dig in to that.
But it's really cool to have sort of this foundation of knowing each other in a different life. But I think a lot of the same traits and characteristics come through. I know we worked on a couple of accounts together. Benchmade Knives, right? You worked on Benchmade, We worked on Lion together a little bit Hawaiian Airlines. And then here we are.
I'm in a closet near your house and we're talking about something totally different. It's wild.
00;05;18;10
Steve
Well, I was going to say, I mean, I was very drawn to you back then, too. And it's like you and I just kind of connected and I think you were in the throes of stuff with your son at the time. And I was in the throes of stuff with my son at the same time. And we just kind of found each other and we could kind of share stories.
And that was helpful at the time because especially in the work setting, I wasn't telling everybody, that's for sure.
00;05;45;05
Brenda
Right.
00;05;45;23
Steve
You know, it felt like it had to be very hush hush. So to find someone that could really understand what was going on was a really valuable thing. You were like the right the right person at the right time. Thanks for that.
00;05;58;12
Brenda
Yeah, well, likewise. Because you're right, it was definitely, you know, you put a smile on your face when you get to work. Everything's fine in my family, even though you haven't slept all night because you're, you know, dealing with your kid or whatever. And I don't even know how we figured out that we were both going through it.
Maybe we both had that look on her face. It was so bad. But I do remember I think you were one of two people who reached out when when my son overdosed. And I just disappeared from the agency for six weeks. I left on Friday, you know, went home from work and didn't come back for six weeks. And I just thought, that's so interesting. You know, like here we work really in an advertising agency.
It's a very close knit environment. Yeah. I mean, you're in a foxhole with these people like working until 2:00 in the morning, all that. And so you feel like you really know people really well and you're close. And then when, like, my life imploded, literally two people reached out. It was shocking.
00;07;02;19
Steve
It's sad and revealing at the same time. You know, you find out who your friends are.
00;07;07;22
Brenda
Yes. And I think there's also the stigma of it now. I don't think people you'd have to tell me because I wasn't there. I was living in a hospital, but I don't know that people knew what had happened. I even when I got back to work, somebody said, Oh, I thought you went to rehab.
00;07;23;10
Steve
Wow. Oh, wow.
00;07;26;28
Brenda
Which is why I did a lunch and learn. I don't know if you remember that. I did a luncheon learn about the opioid crisis.
00;07;32;04
Steve
I do remember that.
00;07;33;28
Brenda
People say, like, how did you start talking about it? Because I went from hush hush like you and three other people knew at work to doing a luncheon, learn for our whole country about drugs in addiction. And I think for me, having gone through watching my son be on life support, basically he was dad and then all of that, I just came out of that and said, I don't care, I am talking about this.
I'm done hiding it. I'm done feeling ashamed, like we've got to do something about this. So what how was it for you? Like when did you start being a little bit more open about what your family went through?
00;08;13;00
Steve
I'd like to think that I was pretty open about it, but what does that really mean? I think like when there's somebody that I think you and I probably connected anyway, we were probably just talking and like, I think it just naturally kind of evolved from that. I mean, we all have to know we're in a safe place before we start, like dropping the bombs.
But like you said, it's a very kind of intimate profession where you really are in the shit together. So like, let's say, I think we're probably on production and you have all these sidebar conversations where you really kind of get to know each other and after a while you realize this is a safe person. And I think we just started talking.
You start talking about your family, you're going to get you're going to get here. But we all have to know that it's going to be received in a certain way or we take a chance. Right. We we kind of take a chance on people.
00;09;06;03
Brenda
I'm thrilled that we got reconnected. And we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today. But I would love to have you to share. I know you're in long term recovery and to whatever degree you would like to share kind of how that came to be so that we can use that as a launching pad. Then for some of the other stuff, Does does that work?
00;09;26;27
Steve
Yeah, Yeah, that works. And I think I mean, it's it's relevant because it's the backdrop of my fathering life, you know. So I, I got married very young. I will have to back up. So I was 21 when I met my wife and she was this aerobics instructor this is in the nineties, uses aerobics instructor at a gym and she just knocked me out.
I was starting to go to her classes and all that kind of stuff, and next thing I know, they ask me to do this aerobics competition with them. And that's, this is like the full on sparkly unitards and the whole thing. And I was like the only straight guy in the whole thing. So it was absurd and it was funny.
And I was I was young and I was trying to get laid.
00;10;12;18
Brenda
And here, like, this is awesome.
00;10;14;25
Steve
It was well, Brenda, this was like the age of the thong. So it was like.
00;10;19;23
Brenda
I remember.
00;10;21;25
Steve
It was a unique period of time. And for a 21 year old male, it was pretty, pretty amazing. I'm not going to lie. So I met her and she was I'll just go and say she was married at the time. And part of the reason why you get involved with a married woman as a 21 year old man is because you don't think there's going to ever be a chance of having a commitment.
Right? Right. So we get involved in this aerobics competition and next thing you know, we're having an affair. And this is like this whole ramp up was like over the course of three months. And then she's divorced after three months, three months, and all of a sudden we start having this real tumultuous kind of relationship, lots of volatility.
And she was the one that went to AA first. She had a counselor that was like, you know, you really got to get this drinking under control. You're a mother and you're really going to affect your your child with this. She had a child, so she she got into it first. And at one point, you know, the behavior was so unstable, she was like, you know, if you can keep drinking if you want, but you're not going to do it with me.
So I, I took that to heart and I really wanted to be with her. So I started going to AA and we started doing counseling. And this is all like within under a year that this all happened. Yes. It was just really whirlwind and like roller coaster. It was you know, it's a a Hallmark movie, I guess. I got into AA and it did it had a lot of impact on me.
00;12;06;24
Steve
It did. So I went to AA for years, but it's not something that I'd do now. But it really helped. Like just eliminating alcohol from my life was very, very important. Why this backdrop is important is like my kids grew up never seeing us drink a drop of alcohol. If anything, I think we were hyper vigilant like like we kind of drummed this into their heads.
Were were it's like, you know, you have alcoholism on both sides of your families. There's depression, there's suicide watch out like we kind of we led with fear. If I was like, I'm I'm critiquing how I did. And I was young and I was such a young father at that point. So I was in my mid-twenties when we had my middle son.
I just didn't know what I was doing and I felt like I was in over my head. And this is all part of the backdrop to like what kind of a father I was. So I was very quick to anger as a as a young man. I did a lot of damage. And this is the stuff that actually I mean, I have conversations with my sons now.
It's like like especially my middle son. He didn't get the best version of me. He got he got the scariest version of myself. So I think I was from being critical of how I was, I was fairly shame based as a father growing up for him, I would say things like, What's wrong with you? And that's one of those sentences that has a lot of power.
00;13;46;20
Steve
Yeah, I instilled some notions in my son's head that there was something fundamentally wrong with him, and things that worked with my stepson didn't work with him. Like it just is a completely unique individual. And he he did need more attention and needed a lot of things. He wasn't easy, like just out of the gate, like he cried more needed, more attention, and then my younger son after him.
So it was just difficult. As he was a young child, there was a lot of friction.
00;14;21;20
Brenda
Would you say that he was more like just more sensitive overall as a child?
00;14;27;21
Steve
Hundred percent, 100%. But even like separation anxiety from either me or my wife, he he crouched. He cried louder and longer than any of the other kids.
00;14;40;06
Brenda
Like, I'm telling you, this is a blueprint. It is a blueprint. I see it all the time. I'm 100% not a therapist, a doctor, anything like that. But every time I talk with parents, it is like we are all describing the same child. It's so crazy.
00;14;55;11
Steve
Yeah, Yeah. There's a pattern. I think there really are. And there are multiple patterns involved with that. And when we moved out here, we moved to Seattle in 2005. My middle son was kind of put into this new school system and these are things all that came out later and I wasn't aware of this, but he he described moments where he was singled out in his class and had the whole class pretty much chanting that he was stupid here.
He never told me me that I found this out, you know, a few years ago. This is after like all the drug use and after all of that, that I found that out. So so what that tells me, too, is I had instilled so much either fear or shame in him that he he didn't even feel safe enough to talk with me about it.
00;15;47;18
Brenda
Right. Right.
00;15;49;17
Steve
So, you know, this is like in hindsight, there's a lot that of accountability that I have to take like as a father. And I'm quick to do it for things that I think I set him up in ways that I didn't set up the other sons. Like, he just he got a different version of me.
00;16;07;06
Brenda
Yeah, well, it is so interesting. When I had Dr. Garber, Marty on the podcast and we were talking about, you know, I said, Wow, gosh, it's so weird because we have, you know, my kids have the same parents in the same room, in the same blah, blah, blah. And they came out so different. And he was like, No, they didn't.
00;16;25;01
Steve
No, they don't. 100%.
00;16;27;15
Brenda
He's like, No, they didn't. And you're right. Like your kids all get a different version of you and maybe 2.0. Steve with your youngest was a little bit more mature, a little bit less critical, a little bit less, whatever. But we were.
00;16;43;09
Steve
Still yeah, you know, like we were stable at that point. It wasn't like the first year of my career where, I mean, advertising, like you're the threat of losing your job is omnipresent every day. And so, like as a young guy, like, I would say like the overwhelming emotion I had as a young dad was fear. I wouldn't have said that out loud.
I would not have said that. But in hindsight, I was frickin terrified. I had a new job, new family, didn't know what that was about. I felt like I got kind of tricked into it because I had gotten my wife pregnant and we like, What am I doing? This isn't the way things were supposed to turn out. And I like the first ten years, I really struggled.
That's the father that my middle son got the most was me at like peak fear. And then some of this is striking me as I'm saying it now.
00;17;37;10
Brenda
Well, yeah, yeah, of course. And and it is. So it's good and bad when you look back and you realize, oh, that's, that's my part in it. And that's what we in our communities really try to help parents see, is that it's not your fault. But we absolutely contribute to the experience that our kids have. Now, your son, you know, he turned toward substances and I want to kind of turn that corner next.
But he also could have turned toward, you know, extreme biking or mountain climbing or he could have turned toward whatever. So that's the part where substances because our kids are sensitive and they're so brilliant and substances work immediately. So of course he found that, you know.
00;18;31;14
Steve
Yeah. For, for sure. And I think you and I had this conversation at one point where it's like I never take credit for my kids successes. I never do. And oh, that's because of me. But I, I, I'm still quick to take credit for the failures or the struggles that they had. So, I mean, there's definitely some over over functioning that I still you know, that's a reflex that I do.
But I am I think it's important to take an account of what effects I had.
00;19;02;13
Brenda
Yeah. Well, and the thing is, when you do that, you can learn from that and then alter, because even now, right, we're still parenting our kids. They're just belts now. And so we still get to choose how we show up for them. We still get to choose how we react versus, you know, respond versus react. So all of that's still important and it's important for our kids to see us model accountability for what we've done and how we've done, even though we were doing our best.
Right. But we're were doing the best that you could do. And I think that's important too. So. So then fast forward, when did you start noticing maybe sometimes a little off here with with one of my kiddos.
00;19;49;14
Steve
Middle school. I don't know how old he was when we first realized there was marijuana. I'm thinking it was around middle school. And this is where, like he had an older brother who introduced him to it. I think the way it went was when we first realized there was some marijuana. All right, we're going to start urine testing you, Right.
So that when he started realizing that he was being tested and there would be consequences like lack of freedom or something like that, it became a cat and mouse game. Then he switched to DSM, which is kids call it lean now. They call it a lot of things, but it's just basically cough sirup. And that was that was honestly far scarier than the weed.
So this is where it's like even our overreactions had had effects and had other other things, right? So I would come home and this he let's say he was a freshman, I would come home and see him and his pupil would be so dilated, there would be no iris and he couldn't even string a sentence together. And it was it was terrifying.
So I was I didn't articulate this well at the time, but I was confused. I felt inadequate as a as a as a parent. I felt scared and frustrated and irritated. And most of what I did was try and lay down the law. Like that was kind of it wasn't like coming from a place of compassion, like, you know, what are you getting out of this, buddy?
00;21;26;29
Steve
Like, it's like, I see you're struggling with the like it it wasn't coming from that place is coming from more like, this is my house and it's going to go down this way like it's. And again, I think it's important to just be accountable for for that.
00;21;44;01
Brenda
Well, that's I think how that's the default mode, because how do you know there is another option to dealing with it? It's like we are going to discipline our way out of this. The more you misbehave, the more we're going to take things away, the more we're going to lock it down, the more we're going to get. You know, it's just because what else do you know as a parent?
You nobody teaches you anything different. So I think your responses, 99.8% of parents response.
00;22;13;19
Steve
Yeah, we get judgmental like that's that is a it's a default mode right. Yeah. I got very judgmental about it and I just got more strict and and stern so caused more and more of a divide between he and I. The the harder I got, the more distant he became. Which makes total sense. Right.
00;22;37;23
Brenda
How is it going down differently for you and your wife or was it like talk a little bit about how.
00;22;42;25
Steve
Oh, it totally was different. I think we both fell on the side of I mean, we're both strong personalities and kind of domineering. So I think she tried to out dominate him, you know, like removing privileges, removing access to certain people, doing our best to like, limit, but just like grief is very unique. Like to me it's like a fingerprint, you know, like the way we handle certain stresses.
It's very individual. But I think, again, like the base reaction was fear, fear and anxiety. So I don't know about you, but just in the course of my life, I've seen overreaction do a lot more harm than under reaction. And I would kind of I would say that that was true with my son.
00;23;31;18
Brenda
Yeah. So you guys are approaching this as we are just going to lock this down. We're going to, you know, discipline it out of him. And I imagine he's going the opposite direction. Were there any like what was happening from a resource point or what were you how are you trying to like solve?
00;23;51;28
Steve
This was around 2008. I was commuting to Las Vegas. I had taken a job there. So this, you know, 2008, the bottom fell out economically of the Seattle ad market was kind of rough. So I was like, okay, I'm out of here. So I skipped town and I'm commuting back and forth every weekend and my wife was having to hold everything down here by herself.
I would come home, stressed out, you know, it just nobody was winning, right? So I was not I was not keenly aware of a lot of the things that was happening. And with him. So she would tell me. But still, it's different from seeing it.
It's not the same. So he at that point was hiding a lot. So I would get limited information and then I was commuting. After that, I was commuting to San Francisco. So there was like a several year chunk of time. I was pretty M.I.A. I really was. And that it's kind of like when he needed me the most.
00;24;56;07
Steve
So if you're sensing like, a bit of guilt that I have.
00;25;00;04
Brenda
Yes, yes.
00;25;02;08
Steve
Yes. But it's like actions have consequences.
00;25;06;08
Brenda
Yeah. And you're supporting your family, right? And and like you said, and if you haven't been in the advertising industry, especially as a creative person, you I don't think you can understand the level of uncertainty that you face truly, truly not knowing from day to day whether you're going to have a job. Because if the agency loses that client and you're working on that client, you no longer have anything to do.
So I totally can understand why you would be commuting to another state or another city for a job. That makes perfect sense to me. And and I mean, it's just it makes me happy to know that you guys can have those conversations now as he heads into adulthood and potential fatherhood and all of that, that he's seen you modeled to him that humility and that hindsight and, you know, just being really, really transparent with him about how that all happened and how you feel about it.
00;26;06;28
Steve
Yeah, I love our relationship at this point and very transparent. And gosh, he was so many headaches at that point. But it's like I feel there's a certain level of closeness like that that is forged from kind of I mean, some therapists would say, well, that's trauma bonding. Steve Well, you know, you can you can label it however you want, but there's a level of intimacy, like when you're there was one night and this was after he had been to treatment, we were doing intensive outpatient, so we were doing all we're still trying to do everything.
And there was one night I came home and he was high out of his mind, didn't know what was happening, and sent him to the back room to just to his bedroom to kind of just chill out so that we could have a conversation in the morning. Right. I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere trying to talk with him when he was out of his mind.
So after a few minutes, I come into the room and he's naked and he looks like a ferocious animal and he's crouched down and like literally like an animal, like, drool coming out of his mouth. And I was like, put some fucking clothes on and he looks around like an animal. And he literally, like in one move, like flings, flings a window open and dive straight out the window.
And we're on the second floor. And I was 100% sure that he was dead because there's concrete underneath his window. It's driveways, right? So I tear around out to the front of the house and I look at the car like he's not there. There's no my wife's car was there was a big dent in the hood and his naked ass is looking down the street and I hear the slapping ground.
00;28;04;02
Steve
So his feet slapping the ground. And then he comes back in the house and he I was scared for my son, my younger son is watching like all of this. So my son comes in. He's got these two shrubs in his hand. They look like cut off heads and he's buck naked and he's just panting and wild eyed.
I was like, Please, please put the shrubs down, son, and go to bed. And he kind of shoves his way past me. And I was really scared for my youngest son. And I got behind my oldest son and I took him down and I put him in a rear naked choke. And we got into this horrible kind of physical confrontation where he was like bucking like a wild bull.
I was just trying to subdue him. Then he starts vomiting and we're like oil wrestlers on the ground, and I'm just trying to subdue him but not hurt him. And my wife was going like, should I call the police? And he no, this was he was 18 at this point. So I didn't want him to have a criminal record.
Right. So I was like, no, no, no, don't don't like, we're just going to ride this out because I didn't want to limit his opportunity. Right? So we're rolling around in his filth and I held him all night long. I, I finally picked him up, carried him to his bed, and I spooned him all night long because I didn't want him to get up and run away.
00;29;42;18
Steve
And the next morning I took him to the E.R., and the E.R. doctor was like, Listen, you're you have a second chance. You're most people that die about a second floor windows don't get second chances. Like that was the worst single, worst night of my life. I would say the longest and roughest night of my life. But at the same time, there is something about being that close with another person in this shit together that forges a bond.
And yeah, call it trauma bonding, call it whatever you want. But it's there's a level of closeness there that he and I know.
00;30;24;29
Brenda
Yeah. Did you see that at all when he was going through this, that this was part of his story? Because I didn't not see that when my son was going through it. I just thought I had failed as a parent. He was, you know, this crazy kid. Everything was horrible. Life was horrible. My kid was going to die.
00;30;43;08
Brenda
And if somebody would have told me, well, this is part of his story, I think I might have like hit him in the face because I'd be like, What are you talking about?
00;30;51;00
Steve
Yeah, I don't think we wanted to be part of the story. Like I said this to my wife, like, my wife has breast cancer, and like, few months ago, I said that exact sentence to her like this when I finally broke down, it's like, I don't want this to be part of our story, Right?
00;31;06;06
Brenda
Let's skip this chapter.
00;31;07;29
Steve
Let's skip this chapter. Like I don't want it. Nobody consulted us, nobody asked us. I don't want it. And it's the same thing with substance abuse, like, let's call that denial. Like, I didn't want that to be part of our story. I really didn't. But it was.
00;31;33;16
Brenda
Hi. I'm taking a quick break because there is a new resource for dads who have kids struggling with substance use and mental health. And it is a game changer. This is a private online community called the Woods. It's completely disconnected from social media and it gives men the evidence based tools and strategies to help them help their children make positive change.
And it's also a place where they can be totally real about what's going on. The Woods is hosted and supported by battle tested advisors who are all dads themselves, and they work with members to help them better navigate a really challenging time in life. So if you're a dad listening and wondering where all the other cool dads are who have these amazing, yet challenging kids, the woods is where you can meet up.
And if you know of a dad or a stepdad who could use some additional scaffolding around them right now, you can let them know there's a private and supportive place to go. You can learn more at Members Dot the Woods community, dawg. And there's free trial so there's no risk to check it out. Okay, now back to the conversation.
00;32;50;20
Steve
There's a special kind of feeling that you have when you drive to school and you see an ambulance there because of something your son did and he was high out of his mind, jumped out of another window and punched a security guard like six foot eight security guard and had to go to the hospital and be in the detox unit and the whole thing.
So when that that was like the straw that broke the camel's back from that, we sent him to treatment like full term treatment. And we had tried like individual outpatient therapy. We had done that. We sent him to treatment. And what that really did was bias time like it was is just hitting the pause button. It was like so that we weren't just in it and in reaction like whack a mole mode.
We were they bought us a little bit of time to like game plan the future and that was super valuable. Like, I know treatment is expensive. It's a huge burden for a lot of parents.
A huge weight to carry. But just the pause button was really helpful when, when we talked like we're going to have a 30 minute conversation, it's over. That's different from a year. It's just it's not the same thing. Like if you have two rough years, like that's it feels like an eternity and you're scared it's not going to change.
00;34;15;06
Steve
Yes. So, like, I really empathize with any parent out there who's like in the throes of it. It's frickin scary. And it feels like it's never going to be like is that's the question. Is it ever going to be different?
00;34;28;28
Brenda
So how did things get different with him?
00;34;32;13
Steve
Well, things got worse before they got better. We tried the college thing. College didn't work. He failed his first year. It was just like a joke. And I was like, Dude, you should just check out the military, Just check into it. And this is like one of the most heartbreaking sentences someone has ever said to me is I was really pumping this really hard, like, go to the military, just give it a whirl.
He's like, When you say, That sounds like you don't want me.
00;35;03;02
Brenda
Yeah.
00;35;04;02
Steve
Or he said, It's like you like you want to get rid of me. And that was just so heartbreaking because on a level it was true. I didn't want drama anymore. I didn't want it like and we had kicked him out of the house multiple times and it was just drama, drama, drama. But he went a military route and it like every like the structure was amazing and he flourished in that It did wonders for.
So he's married now and he's got a career and he's he's doing well.
00;35;40;28
Brenda
That is so amazing. And I one of the reasons that I really love to play the the movie forward for people is that we talk a lot about in the invitation to change it and craft that there is no one size fits all. There is no one way to get healthy. There's no one way to get sober. There's no one way to find recovery.
And it looks so different for so many people. And I just love that. This is another example of another way that, you know, somebody really was able to change their life.
00;36;15;29
Steve
It's a big deal. And like you're inside about there's no one one size fits all thing. Like that's we we tried that. You know we like I went to Al-Anon for a while and you'd hear these heartbreaking stories and but it was a very tough love approach. And I remember one of the this one woman said she was really upset that her saw her daughter was in jail and another mom piped up, She's like, oh, my gosh, I wish my daughter was in jail.
At least I'd know where she was. Yeah, it's like that doesn't break your heart. I don't know what will. I mean. So. But what they were preaching, there was a tough love. You got to set firm boundaries, got to kick them out, kick them out Like that was the whole thing. Kick them out. You can't give an addict like an inch.
They'll take a mile. You can't do it. And we went to this one, substance abuse counselor and I kind of relayed that to him and he's like, oh, my God, is that what they're teaching people? The only chance that you can have to to really get out of this long term is to maintain a connection, not sever the connection.
Yeah, and that's messy. That's not cut and dry. And that's where it's like I think that's really disappointing for a lot of people to hear. I think it's that's hard. Like it's much easier to just like black and white out of the house. You're off the list like you're we're not we're not going to do this anymore.
00;37;48;29
Brenda
We just voted you off the island. And and when you figure out how to get healthy, then you can come back to our island. Like, it doesn't even make sense.
00;37;57;00
Steve
But it would be nice. It's appealing. Like. Like kryptonite. The the appeal of that.
00;38;03;25
Brenda
Absolutely.
00;38;04;19
Steve
Wouldn't it be wonderful if it work like that?
00;38;06;23
Brenda
It would be. And the other thing about that, and I think this is where people get confused with craft and the invitation to change is that you do have to have boundaries. You absolutely have to have boundaries, and you do have to at times not have your child live with you. That is just the reality and that's going to make them unhappy because your lack of boundaries has been working for them.
Like, of course they're going to be pissed off when you say, No, you can't come to my house, hire. No, you can't use drugs in my house or no, this is in a time when we can live together because it makes me too scared and anxious and unhappy and I don't sleep or whatever. But anyway, so it it is a really heartbreaking message that I think a lot of parents get about the tough love.
And again, government says there is no such thing as tough love. There's either tough or there's love, but the two can't go together. And I just think that that is so true. And now this is what I'm so we've talked, but I haven't heard this story is how you go from the advertising industry. I should know this because I do the same thing but advertising industry.
But you became a therapist. I didn't. I didn't do the therapist thing. So that's a lot of work. That's a pretty big mindset shift. Like, tell me how that transpired.
00;39;27;26
Steve
Yes. So back when you and I actually met around that time, my wife and I started going to a Gottman therapist. For folks who don't know, like the governments are pretty famous for being able to, like, sit with the couple for like less than a minute and within 83% accuracy or something like that, be able to say whether or not they're going to get a get a divorce.
And there are big there are big deal up here in Washington. And we went to this Gottman therapist and it really made a difference in our relationship and how we're communicating just how we were showing up for each other. And at that point in time, I was like, Yeah, huh. That's I could see myself doing that. I could see myself.
And, and I should say too, that like I would say for much of the time that I was in advertising, I never really felt like I was playing for the good guys.
00;40;23;09
Brenda
That's a whole nother podcast we can do.
00;40;25;23
Steve
It's it's a whole thing, right? But I never really I was using emotion to sell people shit that they didn't need so that they could impress people that they didn't like. You know, that's essentially it. But that's where there is a similarity because at the at the crux of it, the currency is always emotion. We were dealing in the emotion in advertising, and I'm still dealing in the emotion now.
Yeah. So and it's still about stories.
00;40;55;01
Brenda
Yeah.
00;40;55;18
Steve
So it's like we do this to ourselves. Like the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves are incredibly powerful. So I think there's a lot of similarity between advertising, like we run little marketing campaigns in our mind. If we're shame based, it's going to be like, You suck, you're a piece of shit, you're a loser. Everything you do gets ruined.
That's that's an advertising message. Yes. Repetition. So the same thing. Like we can also do that in a positive things like how about this? Like you're human, you're doing the best you can. Like play that one on repeat loop that one for a while, right?
00;41;38;02
Brenda
Right. Let's buy a really fat media plan for that message, because that's the one we need.
00;41;44;10
Steve
Yeah, but we're like, we're really good at the others and that's the thing that's interesting is like I get to talk like whether it's a CEO or whatever, like you can be incredibly successful and still run those tapes in your mind.
00;41;57;09
Brenda
Yeah, it's really, really true. I think that I hadn't thought about those similarities, but you're right. And and I agree. I think we spend a lot of time, you know, not that any of the companies that we worked for, our clients were bad. But I think when I had the opportunity after my son came back to life and I kind of looked at, wow, I've probably got I don't know, I'm positive, I'm optimistic.
Let's call it 30 years left in my life. What am I going to do with those years and am I really going to try to sell more chardonnay to young mothers or am I going to try and help some parents keep their kids alive and repair those families and relationships? So that's, you know, it's it's a light bulb moment, I think, when when we go through this with our kids.
I think it's a really good opportunity for parents to take inventory of your life and say, am I doing the the thing I need to be doing? And maybe you are there are definitely people who are and then there's people like me who said, oh, heck no. Like, this is not what I need to be doing.
00;43;15;26
Steve
There's also that weird disconnect, like when you're in the throes of something like that with your child and you come into a boardroom where everybody's like super serious about like whatever widget they're going to sell or like it's there's a disconnect there where it's jarring. We're like, What the fuck? Like, am I really like, Is it really? How important is this?
It's like, my kid is going to kill himself. I don't care about your frickin widgets. Like. Like how important is it? So there's a different scale that it's kind of like cancer survivors have a different scale of like, what's important and what isn't.
00;43;56;09
Brenda
Yeah, the the, the stress where the scale definitely tips for sure. And also, I had a moment after my son was doing okay and I will never forget I was in a meeting and there was a huge amount of drama because the the font was not big enough.
00;44;17;15
Steve
I'm saying.
00;44;19;18
Brenda
And what I realized in that moment, because I kind of lost it, was I'm not the right person to do this anymore because I'm not. This just isn't. I just can't. So yeah, it's it's pretty enlightening. And I and I think if, you know somebody who's listening and you're like, huh, maybe this is a time when I can look at what I'm doing.
And it's not that you have to go into the business like, you know, I did or you did becoming a therapist. And we're going to talk about the woods in a minute, but it could just be, you know, maybe you love animals and you want to go help animals or you really want to be an artist or whatever it is.
This is a really good time to do that. So that'd be my promotion, would be to do a self inventory and see what do you want to do with the rest of your life. So let's just talk about the woods for a minute. So you probably thought I was insane when I reached out and said, Oh, hey, what you doing?
Can we talk about this? This little thing I got going on over here? Because sadly, we had you know, we had a host in the woods and he suddenly passed away, which was terrible and traumatic. And it left us with this big gaping hole for our community. Yeah. So we reached out and asked, you know, we had some conversations and you were interested.
And so when you think about the guys that you'll be meeting and working with in the woods, knowing that they have similar stories to you, kind of what's your what's your hope or your intention for that work?
00;45;57;18
Steve
Yeah, my hope would be that guys have a place where they can take off their mask. I mean, that's that's a real big not just men, but like I, I'm, I grew up as a man. Like, I just. I know what it's like to create this self and this persona, this persona and broadcast it to the world that, like, this is a failure free zone.
Like everything is fine. Don't act like I'm not going to come into a room and talk about any like, feeling inadequate. Let's say like that is not a word that comes out in a lot of casual conversations with men like you will not go to a coffee shop today and see two guys just said, Hey, hey, Bobby, let's talk about our feelings.
You know, like it's just not good. It's not going to happen. No, I mean, I've noticed that like as a 52 year old man, I really like my relationships with other men better now than I did in my thirties because I was so competitive. And guys are still showing up with like, this kind of broadcasting mentality of like, I got my shit together, Things are good.
Like, here's where I'm going. Next year's going to be better than this year. And there's just this kind of like there's a lot of pressure to, to build that image of yourself. But I think at 52, most of my friends have gotten kicked in the nuts enough to, like, kind of let their guard down. Yeah. And, and like, we can kind of show up for each other and be vulnerable and just that.
00;47;31;04
Steve
So, like, for the woods, I would love to have a place for it. Like, guys need for one. Guys needs to know that they're not going to be judged guys. And it almost takes like modeling. They need to know if it's a safe place where it's like, okay, this is a real room. And they don't know that. Like, you don't know that, but it's like it almost always it takes like me being vulnerable for other people to know it's okay to be vulnerable.
00;48;01;27
Brenda
Right?
00;48;02;19
Steve
Other men in particular. Yeah. So, like, I'll give you an example. It's like I think most of like the bonding things that I've seen men do, they're standing side by side. They're fishing together during the car together. They're pointed in the same direction. They're not opposed to each other. The coffee thing, like drilling into each other's face, isn't necessarily the thing.
It's like guys want to come alongside each each other. Like, that seems to work.
00;48;31;08
Brenda
I like that. I like the just the practicality of that. And I've noticed that even with my boys, as we always have better conversations when we're doing something and not sitting face to face so well, I think it's going to be so invaluable to give that that private space to to go through this. Because what I always think of is I can't imagine if I would have had this space when I was going through it, not just for the learning and the knowledge and all of that, but just to to look even in that little zoom box and go, okay, here's a bunch other people who are really amazing parents who love their kids to
death, who are doing the same thing as me, and we're all moving in the same direction. We're all doing the same work. We are thrilled to have you. And I think we have to think about a retreat for these guys at some point.
00;49;24;13
Steve
Yeah, I like that idea a lot.
00;49;26;11
Brenda
Awesome. Well, I will let you go. I know you've got stuff to do, but I can't thank you enough for being here. And if you're listening, just know that Steve is going to be hanging out in the woods. I don't know. That's not a very good hanging out in the woods. That sounds creepy, though. That does seem kind of creepy here in the woods.
But anyway, he'll be there. We'll still, you know, do calls and have all that and and give you guys time to just, you know, be real, be honest and and just share the share the muck, share the rolling around in the vomit and all the stuff that comes with this adventure.
00;50;04;11
Steve
Brandon I'm real proud of you and what you're doing things.
00;50;06;25
Brenda
Yeah. Thank you for being here.
00;50;09;17
Steve
Thanks for having me. Brianna.
00;50;11;07
Brenda
I'd like to ask you to do one quick thing before we sign off and that is if you enjoy this podcast, if you would go into your podcast player, whether that's in Apple or Spotify or Audible or Google and just tap the stars to rated, that allows other people to see that people are listening and engaged in the podcast and you'll be helping another parent who is in a difficult time to find the podcast.
So if you're in Apple in particular, you're going to go to the main page of Hope Stream and then just scroll down and you'll see the stars. And it also gives you an option to write a little review. So if you do listen and enjoy it and get something out of it, that would mean the world to me.
That is it for today. If you'd like to get a transcript for the show, there's always a transcript at the show Notes page, which is at Brenda Zane forward slash podcast. You can either scroll and find the episode that you're looking for, or you can always just do a search and type in a person's name. You can type in a topic and you can also find all of the resources that we mentioned in the episodes there as well.
And if you haven't downloaded my free e-book yet, I'd invite you to do that. It's called Hindsight. Three Things I Wish I Knew when My son was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some really good insight into why your child might be doing the things that they're doing. And there are some really great tips of things that I learned along the way that I so wish I would have known.
00;51;42;27
Brenda
It'll also give you great ideas on how you can navigate this in a healthier way to preserve your self, your sanity and your wellbeing, which we all need. So that is at Brenda's income. Again, hindsight, as always. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for putting in the time and the work and the effort and energy into getting your family into a healthier place and especially for your child.
And I cannot wait to meet you right back here next week.