teasing apart the complexities of gender identity, neurodiversity, substance use and mental health in young people, with Sean Garcia
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
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Guest: Sean Garcia, LMFT find Sean on LinkedIn
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episode transcript
SPEAKERS
Brenda Zane, Sean Garcia
Brenda 01:00
It's great to meet you here today, I have such an incredible guest and conversation to share with you. I know many families who are in situations where their child has either come out to them as gay or transgender or their child is questioning and moving through different stages and testing out kind of what feels right to them. And it can be confusing and uncomfortable, to say the least. Then, when you add on factors like neurodiversity, mental health diagnoses, substance use, self-harm, suicidality. Oh, and also that global health pandemic. It is a lot. And I know many of you are really, really struggling with this in your family. That is why I was beyond happy to be connected with Sean Garcia. Sean is a therapist in the Bay area of California. And in his practice, he helps individuals and families with these exact issues. So talking with him felt like a good step in the right direction to better understand what can be confusing topics of gender identity, nonbinary teens and young adults, neurodiversity, and to get some insight and perspective to help us navigate this with our kids.
So let me tell you about this incredible human being you're going to hear from today. Sean is an entrepreneurial-minded visionary, who combines business and mental health. He spent 12 years in corporate marketing, communications, and HR project management, working with companies like ADP, HP, and blue jeans. And he has personal experience with stressors and issues impacting the corporate workforce, especially in Silicon Valley. Then he went on and charted his own course by studying clinical psychology, becoming a licensed therapist, and has developed a psychotherapy private practice that serves the spheres of neurodiversity, gender identity, sexual identity, and general personal development. He's passionate about being a voice for transgender people in professional environments, who are hesitant about coming out. I'll tell you what, finding Shawn is like finding a unicorn with his incredible mix of corporate talent, his psychotherapy practice and his own lived experience. So please get comfy, grab a snack or a big mug of something or hop in your car, and listen in to this enlightening and very inspirational conversation with Shawn Garcia.
Brenda 04:19
Sean, welcome to Hopestream. I'm so excited to have you here today and have this conversation and I'm really looking forward to it. So welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
Brenda 04:29
So we know each other through a mutual friend Cathy, who is the community director in the stream. So she and I work with lots of mamas who have kids who are struggling in lots of different ways. And so when she introduced us I was very excited because I don't have a lot of personal experience with the kinds of clients that you see as a therapist. So I think that this is going to be a great conversation, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance.
Brenda 05:06
So I'm learning along with everyone else. So thanks for making the time.
Sean 05:11
Certainly, you know, it's interesting. I, I hear people apologize in advance. And I think that's interesting. There's a sensitivity, I think that cisgender people feel around the trans or nonbinary community. And not, that makes me a little sad, because they're not there might be a perception that people attack, you know, cisgender people for making small errors. I'm not a 20 year old, so I don't get offended at those things. Like I just kind of view it as there's a tension, there's positive intention to want to learn. So there's really, for me, it's, it's not about making mistakes. But I feel for cisgender people who expressed the same sentiment that you do,
Brenda 05:50
yeah, I think it comes from a place of just wanting to be sensitive and wanting to not hurt anybody or not appear to be ignorant. Like I pride myself on trying to be educated about things. And I just realized, there's, there's just no way you can be educated about everything. And so yeah, I do, I don't say that as much from a place of thinking, I'm gonna get attacked. It's more of just wanting to be sensitive. And I think that comes from having a son who really struggled with substance use. And I get questions, or I hear people talk about that in such an ignorant way. And it's so hurtful. And I just want to say like, but if you knew, if you really knew and understood, and were more educated, you wouldn't say those things. So maybe that's where it comes from, for me is I'm so sensitive to that. I'm like, oh, but but but…
Sean 06:50
Slight changes to change that exchange.
Brenda 06:53
Right, right. Because it's hard to be somebody who is, quote, unquote, different, whether that's substance use or whether that's, you know, a gender issue. And so I think he's just, it's already hard and like to not pile more hard on top of that for somebody is important to me. So anyway, well, thank you for your graciousness there. Why don't you just, you know, I introduced you, but I really would love to hear from you just some background, any part of your story that you want to share and how you've landed at where you are today doing what you're doing, and working with the folks that you work with?
Sean 07:34
Well, 22 years ago, I came out to my family when I was between a sophomore in junior in high school as being trans. And during that time, the Internet was far different than it is today, there was no YouTube, the internet itself didn't have the same level of resources and content that it does today. So coming out as transgender was really an ambiguous kind of announcement. And there was no script or process to do anything with that took the time to transgender medical focus was not on younger people. And really this more on much older people, stereotypically men becoming women. So even just coming out as trans is very odd. And there's really nothing my family could do with it at the time.
Sean 08:21
So after coming out, I continued with life and went through private Catholic all girls high school, and did life well with the college got jobs travelled the world bought houses and the interesting thread throughout the next 15 years. So from 15 to 30, I was chronically ill. And thankfully, I didn't dabble in substances or, you know, sexually explicit behaviors or anything that could have taken me down a different road. But I was certainly psychosomatically ill and because I was testing negative to all kinds of invasive and noninvasive tests. So it literally was not until I turned 30 and came out to myself again as an adult as trans with the help of a therapist that once I did so literally all my symptoms disappeared. So call it a miracle, which I view it as secrets kill us. And I believe that that was killing me from the inside, no one would have seen it.
Sean 09:25
But that is such a powerful experience. I use that with my patients today. Not that we just share our secrets with everybody. But once we come to terms with it internally and share it with the right people and get our life on the right track. Our symptoms disappear. Yeah, new challenges present themselves but the chronic symptoms will disappear.
Brenda 09:45
Wait, I'm dying to ask though, So you came out to your parents, you're 15and then you just went on living? Was there any dialogue in your family like what was dynamic because that has to have been very difficult?
Sean 10:03
Very difficult. Yeah, it's probably one of the most painful experiences within our family unit during that time. You know, we thought therapist, a therapist that specialized in this. And again, there wasn't really a roadmap, right? There was there were no hormones to take, it really wasn't possible. So looking back at it, I know that we were not resourced enough to handle that. And I think I did the complete opposite as I was an over producer overachiever did well in sports did well in school, you know, received affirmation and validation there to just show the world that I was okay. Where I could have control over my environment, because clearly I, I had no control over this gender aspect. My parents certainly had no knowledge or education or guidance on this either. So it was basically just learning to tread water. Wow, I became kind of an expert, water Treader for a long time, which is exhausting to tread water, absolutely exhausted. No wonder you were sick. Yeah. And when I share this with people, personal friends, and also patients, I share with them that I was not a kind, generous patient person. And it's very opposite of what they experienced me today. To during that time, I was so judgmental. So critical, so irritable. But I kept it pretty under the radar. Because I was so envious that other people could live. And I knew that I wasn't able to live in that way. I wasn't able to relate to people who connect have relationships, because this was holding me back. But I could do the other productive stuff. The working, earning money, the buying things, I could be successful with that. Yeah, this facade of living the life.
Brenda 11:48
Wow, that's, that's amazing. I could probably spend the next hour justpart of things. But I know, you know, part of why I wanted to do this was to help parents who are going through this experience like your parents 20 years ago, where they're getting this information, or they're seeing things that they're like, Hmm, because I do hear that a lot, too. Parents will say, Yeah, I kind of knew something was different from like two or three years old, I knew something was different. But they have no idea what to do with that information. So I will shelve the whole, like deep dive into Sean's life. We'll do that another time. So wow, that's really, I think, a great launching point for talking about what parents might be doing better when this conversation comes up. But tell us who you work with, more specifically in your practice, just to give us a better idea of who what kind of your day-to-day work is and the kinds of things that you're dealing with?
Sean 12:54
Sure. So I didn't launch directly into becoming a therapist right out of college, I went often did global marketing for high tech companies, and receive some beautiful nuggets of wisdom along that way that led me into becoming a therapist. I graduated with an undergraduate degree in psychology. So I knew that's what I wanted to do. But at 22 or 21, I knew that I wasn't married, I didn't have children. And I didn't feel competent enough in life to be a therapist. So fast forward for 10 years, I go back to the same college to get my master's. And I entered that space very differently. I had already started transitioning for about two years, I'd already done my own internal work. And I intentionally went back to school to work with trans people and their families. And interestingly enough, once I got back into natural therapy work, other things kind of came out such as neurodiversity, eating disorders, all these others co-occurring things. A person comes in the door with transgender as their presenting issue. And yet, there's far more depth and breadth to that experience. So I didn't really plan my practice, other than feeling like I was very competent to guide others through the transgender experience.
Sean 14:06
And yet, I've been blessed with neurodiversity as my secondary focus area, specifically autism, and a lot of my clients have ADHD and other kinds of learning disorders. But autism has been a very prevalent co-occurring condition among trans people. And there's very little research on it, but it's just the high prevalence. So about two to 4% of the population is trans. And again, that's a moving target.
Sean 14:34
And of the two to 4%. They estimated that 10% of those people are on the spectrum. Wow. So not ADHD necessarily, but autism. So I would say that lines up pretty closely to the percentage of clients that I have. Wow, that is fascinating. So it's a very unique, beautiful entry point into learning about gender through someone who doesn't necessarily have body signals? Who dissociates? Who has poor hygiene and kind of disseminating, what is autism? What is gender? What is just anxiety, and learning to speak their language and helping them find the language to talk about what's going on within them. So that has been a blessing. And I feel like I've been given a gift to be able to learn that language. And every client is different with different dialects, that same language. Right. So that is kind of built up the primary population.
Brenda 15:29
That is so fascinating. And so what I am envisioning in my mind is, right now, for the last two years, you have these, are they mostly young people? Or is it all ages?
Sean 15:41
Yeah, my youngest has been six, and my oldest is in their 60s.
Brenda 15:44
Okay, so Wow, that's so really broad integration. Yeah. So they come in, potentially, you know, trying to sort through some, I imagine some emotions and some discoverability, about themselves from a transgender standpoint, then you realize there's autism in the picture, then you have a pandemic, which has affected everybody, you probably have this other co-occurring things, maybe substance use, maybe self-harm, things like that, that is quite a bundle of stuff to deal with. And I think this is something that parents are confused about, too, is once they become aware of everything that's going on. It's like, what do you unwrap first? Like, what? How do you know? Because I think a lot of parents are like, Oh, my gosh, we got to get the substance use solved first. Right? Because that feels really dangerous, and hurting the brain. But yet we have this, you know, maybe to their kiddo, the, you know, the transgender thing comes first. Like, how do you know what part of the onion to peel back first?
Sean 16:51
Well, interestingly enough, I grew up doing imaginary play as a doctor, and I Well, I'm not a doctor, I feel like there's a part of me that plays that role in terms of like investigating and being calm, under the chaos of all of these things. And knowing that right now, I don't see patients in person for being able to disseminate, you know, the severity and self-reports of substance use and self-harm. And all of that is contingent upon proper reports, right, which is very subjective. So it's very, it is very difficult, even as a professional, I don't have that emotional attachment like parents do. But I have to kind of put the pieces together come up with a general bell curve, where is this person with all of these different things, I kind of take the first couple sessions as triage, and just getting a general understanding for what the patient is bringing forward.
Sean 17:42
And also meeting with the parents too, and to see if those stories kind of align. So if gender seems prominent with the patient, and gender is prominent with the parents on that matches, but if substance use is high on the parent’s radar, and maybe depression is high on the child or teen, I start to kind of weave my way through asking more thorough questions, but I kind of view it as being a triage doctor. So whatever is, however, the patient is bleeding out, let's say, yeah, so if they are truant in school, due to being hungover or something, I look for the most prominent presenting issue.
Sean 18:24
If I take all disorders off the table, what is the prominent behavior right now? Or emotion? Are they violent all the time, because I'll start there, then what's leading to that? So I start with the presenting is like bleeding out, we just put our hand over that and deal with that first. So if it's a substance use issue, and they're not going to school, and they're hungover all the time, then we need to focus on that first, we cannot do depth work when someone is unstable. So that's kind of how I start. Once the primary issue is addressed, and they're on medication, we're talking about it more thoroughly. They're in groups than weaving in other things, what other parts of your body are hurting, and going into the depths work. And hopefully, the deeper work will begin to heal the things that were bleeding from the top and kind of come together. Right? Right. So that's kind of my approach, with parents I know can feel very scattered, right? They're not grounded.
Brenda 19:17
And it's probably really helpful to have somebody like you who is not so emotionally invested, right? Because we're so you know, we just don't want our kids to experience pain. We don't want them to not fit in, we don't want them to go through the things that they're we know they're going to go through if they are different in any way, whether that's a gender issue, whether that's a learning difference, or in neurodiversity. So I just wonder and I think because I see this and I can imagine myself doing it, as you know, you try so hard to soften that for your child. You may say like, oh, this is a phase, right? I hear that this is a phase
Brenda 19:59
This is just your, you know, your teenager, you've got a lot of hormones going on, this is just a phase, let's just get through this. And I think we do that not from a place of, you know, wanting to, like punish our kids or something like that. But we just do it from a place of I just don't want you to have a hard life and I don't want you to stand out and have all these issues. Do you see that in your practice? And then in what impact? Is that having? Like, how is that affecting our kids? When we do that?
Sean 20:30
Yes, I, I witness it so much. And I'm just patient with parents, that's difficult when you are the team watching the parents go through that. But it's an absolutely necessary step for parents. And it's important for them to be able to voice it, ideally, not in front of their team. Because it does have an impact. There hasn't been a time where the parent’s fears have not matched the teen’s fears. The teens may not acknowledge it in the presence of their parents. But behind closed doors, they'll say yeah, I'm scared about sending out too. I'm scared about entering a bathroom or I'm scared about people finding abroad my bag, if they're assigned male at birth, or something, you know, nail polish or something small, they're very hyper-aware. Yeah. And so I feel like my job is to be the intermediary, the translator between the parent and teen, you know, assuring the parents that the teen is not acting impulsively, that they have, they're also thinking the same thing that the parents are thinking. And they still want to move forward. Right? I think parents need to be assured that their kids are acting maturely.
Sean 21:40
And that this isn't just something that that they've caught from social media, which is a current kind of myth, I think that is still being played out. Which is this is a trend, especially gender. Yeah, I was gonna ask you if there's any myths that are out there, head that about social media. I hear it at least once a week that parents say I think it's just a trend, like they're just being influenced by their peers. And yes, they're in the stage of life for identity formation is happening. So they are influenced, we're all influenced by the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, how we speak, what we don't say, We're all influenced. But what's interesting about this myth being assigned to this population is that teenagers love attention. They love it. So if this were a trend, why would teenagers choose to affiliate with a marginalized group in which they would receive negative attention? Right? So true, it goes against everything we would say about teenagers, right? They'll do everything to fit in.
Brenda 22:42
Yeah. And if you said only two to 4% are trans, then that would be not the group to hang out with?
Sean 22:52
No, not the majority. Not at all.
Brenda 22:55
Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I'm glad you said that. Because I do hear that. It's like, oh, this is just now this is also this might be a coastal bias. Because I'm on the West Coast. I'm in Seattle, you're in the Bay Area. And I and I wonder about the middle of the country? I think that I had a co-worker in my previous career, who was from Mississippi, and he had to move out of Mississippi, because he actually feared for his life. And I just think I may have a different perspective, because of where I live. Do you see that? No, you probably work with people in California, just from a licensure standpoint, but what's going on in the middle of our country?
Sean 23:45
Well, unfortunately, there's too much attention right now in Texas. That just happened last week. Yeah. About parents potentially being charged with child abuse if they're seeking medical care for their trans child. And I'm seeking some care for a potential patient in Texas right now. And no therapist will get back to me because their license is on the line. Yeah. Because they have to report child abuse. Right. So it's, it's a very slippery, dangerous, sad state of affairs, at least in Texas for right now. Ironically, I transitioned when I was in Texas as an adult, I received all my medical care there and, and received major support from communities there.
Sean 24:30
So it's almost like the Underground Railroad. In these very conservative areas, the community helping the marginalized folks, it's very strong, right? But it has to be done underground, which is unfortunate. Whereas here in California and the West and probably imagine in the east coast as well, you can fly a pride flag. You can put your pronouns out there, you can go to work and put you stay them and it's less fearful. Right, but we are definitely Speaking from places of privilege,
Brenda 25:02
definitely yeah. Because every meeting that I go to at least kind of that is, you know, West Coast-based. Absolutely people, what are your pronouns, and they're on their resume, name, and it's just not a thing. But, again, that's a bias that we have from the coast. So wow, that's, that's super interesting. I hear a lot. You know, parents need to create an affirming environment for their child. What does that mean? Like, if we're really talking about, okay, my, my kid is either questioning or they've come out? What does it mean to create an affirming environment in your home? Because I think that's a loose term that many of us don't understand.
Sean 25:45
I would say it comes, it's able to be developed before anyone comes out. So if we Ignace defy this beyond genders? Are you offering an affirming environment for all cultures? Do you have books, or magazines, or follow social media of like African American people, or Asian people or different kinds of spiritualities? Do you watch different kinds of shows on Netflix or documentaries, you know, exposing your children to me from the beginning of different spiritual practices and having conversations and what Jewish people are going through right now. And what kind of Ukrainian people are going through right now just very age-appropriate, but normalizing it through what the parents are consuming.
Sean 26:31
So if that isn't done upfront, they can always be done. But talking about colleagues that might be gay, or Oh, so and so went to a gay wedding and what that was like talking about in a very, quote, normal way, like, like, it's just another opportunity. If a child or a team does come out, and it's regarding gender, then affirming environment would be something along the lines of letting them choose the clothes they want to wear. If they still go with them to go shopping, then letting the team lead what side of the department store, they go to, letting find males at first paint their nails, or pierce their ears. And these are not major life-threatening changes to their body, that boys with earrings doesn't make them trans. It could be a way that they're getting relief from feeling trans.
Sean 27:23
Just as a find, you know, females at birth, wearing different kinds of clothes, or having a very short haircut. These are small things, that if if the world doesn't know what's going on in your family, they wouldn't necessarily assume that your child is trans, which is why parents are leery, sometimes they're very leery about doing any of those things. They think that that's an indicator. The world really is not focused on the potential of your child being trans people are pretty busy with other things going on in their life. Yeah. And they're focused on their own kid. Yeah, so you're not the center of their universe. And you're not, it's not like there's an aura that says, My child is trans right now, that that's a place of fear that a lot of parents have, like, I'm not ready to come out yet. So please don't cut your hair. Please don't paint your nails. Please don't Pierce both your ears.
Sean 28:10
Because that means that that's more girl-like, you know. So there are affirming things that again, the world is not going to assume that you have a trans child, or nonbinary.
Brenda 28:21
Well, what you just said, I think is something I hadn't thought about either, which is parents have a coming out process of their own, to their friends and colleagues and and potentially even to like grandparents who this might just be such a foreign concept that how do you have that conversation? And I would imagine, it's a lot like substance use, we talked about, you know, with our kids who are using substances when you finally do have to tell people why my son hasn't been in any family photos for two years. Like, right, you do? reveal that it's hard. And we always recommend I do with substance uses. Get yourself a really good therapist and find a community because you're going to need that support. Don't put it on your kid. That's not their issue. Your issue is not their issue. Is it kind of the same? I would imagine it is when you're going through this. Yeah. Well, I'll ask you like, what was your greatest fear? Oh, the judgment, the stigma. And this would be interesting because I think in substance use my fear was they're going to look at me and say, What did she do wrong as a parent to cause her son to use drugs? Like something really bad must have been going on in that household? If he wants to go out and you know, use Xanax all day. So is that the same? Like are? Is that the same fear?
Sean 29:43
Yeah, I would. And I'm not a parent of a trans child. If I were to query parents, I would imagine they would say the emphasis might be more on feeling shame. Brene Brown here.Less judgment like they've done something wrong because I mean, gender is something that's formed? Yeah, life. But more I'm ashamed that my child might look weird. And I'm ashamed of I'm gonna stand out I'm ashamed, our family's gonna stand out now that you know and your grandparents that means you're involved in all this shame, the shame cycle, less judgment but more shame, and is one worse or better, neither on neither are great, but that there's this or of just shakiness. That is going to be coming out because the transgender process can get awkward, can be tricky and painful.
Brenda 30:36
Yeah,
Brenda 30:37
It doesn't align with the majority of society. And I think it does go back to that. I just don't want my kid to suffer. I don't want them to go through this experience that might feel bad to them. But I would imagine, you have to go back to think well, it's more awful and uncomfortable than for them to be where they are now. To us, it might look normal, right? Like, oh, she looks normal, she you know, but inside, like you dying, like so sick and dying, to where yes, the process might be awkward and uncomfortable and look weird for a while and all of that. But if that's making you feel better, and that's like resolving all of that anxiety and all the issues in you, that's what you want as a parent. Even though on the outside, it looks like it's gonna get uncomfortable.
Brenda 31:34
Hi, I'm taking a quick break, because I want to let you know about the private online community I created. And host for moms who have kids misusing drugs, or alcohol. It's called the stream. And this isn't a Facebook group. It's completely private, away from all social media sites, where you start to take care of yourself. Because through all of this, who is taking care of you. It's a membership where we teach craft skills to help you have better conversations and relationships in your family. And we also help you get as physically, mentally and spiritually as healthy as possible. So you can be even stronger for your son or daughter, you can join us free for two weeks to see if it's the right kind of support for you. And learn more about all the benefits you get as a member at the stream community.com. I will see you there. And now let's get back to this conversation with Shawn.
Sean 32:32
That's one thing that I hear from parents as well. They'll ask their team, how do you know that transitioning is going to make you happy? And I find it interesting, because we're asking a team to foresee the future. Now if we just change to words, if we ask them, How do you know of a blank will make you healthy? So how do you know that taking amoxicillin will make you healthy, overcome stress? What do you imagine the kids would say? Yeah, taking it out of context a little bit to be more medical, we would never question someone's desire to try something to make them healthierthan we eventually happy. So the goal is not happiness is health. Initially, these kids are not healthy, they don't feel healthy. They certainly don't feel happy, either. They might feel happy at times, but they're not feeling healthy. So do ask about painting nails, or piercing ears or wearing pants instead of a dress at a wedding. Right? The more we allow teams to do those things, as parents, you can look and see, my kid actually looks a little happier.
Sean 33:42
Right? And that will be the indicator that okay, we're moving in a good direction, like something good is happening here. And you just take incremental steps towards that healing process. It's not going to cause happiness right away. Right? They're wanting their kids, we're sure that they're gonna be happy. I don't know if they're gonna be happy or not. But they might feel healthier.
Brenda 34:01
Yeah, that's really great. And that's great for any parent. kid who's transitioning or questioning or anything, but just to say, Is this making you healthier? does make you feel healthier? Because you're right to say, is this gonna make you happy? It's like, well, I don't know. I don't know if it's gonna make me happy. But if it does feel healthier, and if it calms some of that discomfort in me, then that's moving. It feels like it's moving in the right direction. So, wow. So good, so good. As I was doing some research for this, I read that kids in the LGBTQ community are three times more likely to have suicidal ideation. Did I read that? Right?
Sean 34:46
There are so many different statistics on that. A general, kind of overarching, I think the theme here, and I'll reverse it is that parental support, it dramatically reduces his chances of suicide, self harm, eating disorders, anxiety, depression or any type of mental illness, school truancy, sexually explicit behaviors, and substance use or abuse? Yeah, all those stats are very high. I was just exposed to a statistic last week, which said trans teen teens are just as depressed as most teams. So I think those statistics are moving too rapidly to kind of capture. Exactly, but it is definitely proven that all of those negatives are substantially reduced with parental support, or guardian support family support, let alone school support.
Brenda 35:41
Right? Oh, my gosh, I can't even imagine the whole school nightmare. That's just got to be a whole other world to navigate, which just breaks my heart. But what are some of the risk factors that we wouldn't see necessarily as parents, maybe we have a kid who just came out, or
Sean 36:03
I just think we only know what we know. And we don't know what we don't know. And I imagine there are some things that are risk factors that we wouldn't necessarily know about, or things that could be happening on a daily basis, that are really impacting our kid that we don't even see, it's a lot, you know, I've really tried to learn a lot more about race and racism and how just some things that we never think about are just so hurtful, and so damaging. And so I'm wondering what some of those things might be, that are going on, that we wouldn't see as parents that our kids would be feeling. Some of those maybe just like, the little incessant drip, like those little things that are happening, just in regular day-to-day life that are like, Oh, there's another thing that's not affirming to me. And thinking about a variety of things.
Sean 36:59
And the thing that comes up for me more so than gender is thing on the spectrum. Hmm, someone's presenting in a certain way that may or may not be how they identify. So a person who looks like a boy, but clearly identifies as a girl or nonbinary person, who is who has already created a boy group at school eating with boys, they talk about, quote, boy things, and this is very stereotypical. But they wouldn't be talking about nail polish and makeup and going to maybe a girl-centric concert or something like that. And the nuance of these particular trends team meeting to navigate that dual world is keeping enough involvement in the boy world to stay friends because they don't want to lose friends. But then not having really anything of substance or interest to talk about that as affirming them, because no one knows.
Sean 37:47
And that can also be what they follow on social media, they might hide the fact that they follow other things in social media that they don't do in person. So living this kind of dual life and not really feeling connected to either, because they're not given permission yet to do both, or, you know, one. So this lack of connection. Yeah, like an aloneness in that. A deep deep aloneness. Yeah, and maybe if you're on the autism spectrum, not having the verbal ability to connect with peers, but also to be able to communicate to your parents, what's really going on is that an element of it too? Very challenging, very, very challenging. And this is, this is where I come in and translate. I don't speak on behalf of the client, but they share their language with me. And I repeat it back so that they know that I've received it. And then I encourage them to speak to the parents or we have a family session, and I help guide them through that. There's just the emotional and communication strategies are really difficult, you know, and it's a vulnerable topic, as any team would not want to be talking about their body non sexually just their body. Right, right. Ik Oh, that's totally
Brenda 39:09
And gosh, what a blessing you must be to those people who are going through this the parents and the kids because you do it when you set out I'm the translator that just felt very, like calming to me like okay, there's somebody who can help us through this. Because I don't think any of us are equipped to do this just naturally. You know, if you're a marketing executive or you're a dentist or whatever, like you haven't been trained and how to have these conversations. And so, and I say this to with my my moms and parents about substance use is like you are not a substance use counselor. You are not a therapist. You are not an addiction medicine doctor. So read out and ask for help, because it's not a failure to it's not like, oh, we failed. We don't we can't do this on our own, we have to get some help. Of course, you have to get some help. Like, we're not trained in this unless you just randomly happen to also be an addiction counselor, or a therapist who understands transgender issues like, of course, you're gonna need help.
Sean 40:23
Absolutely, absolutely. And even if you are, they say doctors don't do surgery on their own children. Exactly. Right, because we have our own blind spots, even though I'm trans-identified, if I had a trans child, or even these teams, I, we don't share the exact same journey. Yeah. So I have my own blind spots. Yeah. And my own emotional attachment. Right?
Brenda 40:44
Yes, I think emotional attachment is probably something that we underestimate is being able to hold that space for somebody. When we're not like, for us mom's like, you didn't come out of me. So I have a little bit more ability to separate my emotions, you know, I can talk with a mom about her kid who's using heroin and living on the streets, and I can be fairly objective about it. Because it's not my baby. It's not mine. Now, my kids doing that, I'm going to lose it. So that's really important. I wanted to ask, just because I think a lot of people listening might be in the moment like this is going on right now. Because if you're listening to a podcast, you've usually searched for something like this. If this is unfolding in your home at the moment, what is kind of the first thing not to do? And the first thing that you want to do when you have a kiddo who's going through this has come to you? Or maybe it is it hasn't even been spoken yet? What are the things that we really avoid? And that we really want to do?
Sean 41:54
I'll start with the positives, I think the things to avoid or might be clear, but I'll be explicit about those two, I would say the three things to do, I think with any vulnerable conversation, or any type of transition to I'd like to agnostic by this as well. So let's go beyond gender for a second and just talk about transitions. When someone gets divorced, when someone loses a child, when someone loses a spouse, when there's been a traumatic events, how do we communicate with that person? Once that transition has started? People can be very uncomfortable. Do we bring it up? If we let them bring it up? How far do we dig? Do we crazy, okay, if we cry in front of them, even though they're the one that went through it, there's, you know, there's a lot of hesitation, we don't do well, with what we would call maybe critical, vulnerable conversations. So I would put this in the same category as a transition, a life transition that might not be positive, like a wedding transition, we can talk about certain things a birth of a child, we address it, right. But when it's a potential loss, or a loss, we don't always know how to navigate, like a brain shut down to three, three simple things.
Sean 43:05
If they do approach us, it's ATA, acknowledge their vulnerability, so they come to share it with you acknowledge their vulnerability or bravery. Secondly, thank them, for entrusting you with that information. And thirdly, since they're coming to you in this situation, ask them how you can best support them or how they would like to be supported by you in particular, for a teen it might be I just wanted to tell you, and I need to run to my room and play video games. Yeah. And then that parent would need to pause and let that happen.
Sean 43:42
Because that's the extent of the vulnerability that that person can muster at that time. Yeah, you're right, like that works with any transition, any big change. And you said something to, and I'll, we'll go back to what not to do about a loss. And I think, recognizing that for parents that this can feel like a loss of all of the things that you have envisioned for your family, for your child, there's probably a grieving process that has to happen. Not that there's never going to be good again, but that this is going to be different than we had anticipated. And that's got to be very important for parents to go through with somebody like you like with, not, you know, with your child, but wow, life is gonna look different than I had pictured in my head. I saw my daughter walking down the aisle in a white dress. I saw her having babies like, now this is going to be different. So that's going to be a huge part of this whole thing for parents. And there's just the wrongness of that in the beginning. And there's no timeline for that. That can be very challenging for teens who are very impatient.
Sean 45:01
So my job in those moments is to slow the teen down and help broaden their perspective of what their parents are going through without putting any guilt on them for causing it. Right. And then also holding the space for the parents that, that this is completely normal. And that is it is okay to be pissed. It is okay to say I'm worried about my kids being a freak, I'm worried about slurs, and to say it to me, or their spouse or not to their child. Right, their parents think it and when given the opportunity to say just blurt it out, I know what you're going to say just blurt it out. They will. And once they get it out, then they don't have to hold on to that shakiness. That shame of my kid is going to be a freak. And like, they're going to stand out. There's never going to like a woman, like, purging that. So that doesn't get translated to their kid’s irritability or denying them, you know, nail polish or things like that. But it is a grief process for sure. Yeah, until the parents can kind of come through that and begin to provide healthy guardrails for that transition process, that grief process to move. Because the final stage of grief, that is fairly a new state is meaning-making. That's when people are empowered to do speaking panels. And they've come through the hard stuff. And they've found great meaning and joy. But not everyone gets there quickly.
Brenda 46:21
Yeah, yeah. That could be a long journey. Okay, so I derailed us a little bit, but I want to go back to do what not to do. Yes.
Sean 46:33
Denying insinuating that there's doubt, dismissing it as a phase. In Yes, your teen is in the stage of life, where they are exploring and experimenting. And so to be to respond as fluidly, but not dismissive. As fluidly, as their teen is moving, this is not a finite point in time, that will be forever. And that today, they are going by then next month, it might be she her again, next month, MIT they see is to not get attached to any piece of evidence until there becomes a pattern. So as a professional, there's no test for being trans or nonbinary. But we base it on three kind of subjective criteria, which is consistency, consistency, and persistency. Which is why having a relationship with a therapist is so important for minors, we lose that opportunity when the person is over 18 Which is why the transition process past 18 It's very challenging. Because they can get medical care without proper guardrails, you know, from a therapist, right.
Sean 47:48
So as a minor, and as a parent, you know, your kid might be penalized. I called ping pong match, a nice rally back and forth in the beginning, that's exploring, experimenting. And we just wait. We don't get attached to any one team yet. One player, you wait until there's enough action up in it. And that is it doesn't mean you're always on one side. But you're within a you know, a really quick hits back and forth. And that could be other days in the heat, they them and he they then hate that must be where they're at like that is getting much more consistent. Right? We don't know what 20 years from now will look but for right now, you'll they'll accept both. And they've been doing that for a year. That's interesting. Okay, there's something there. It's not a sheet. So there's an absence of sheet. That's maybe a fact evidence right now. But it took a while to get there. So we look for that consistency, insistency and persistency. And that is why the surgical procedures are pushed out. Because we want to make sure that patients are going to have a successful outcome. And that they're not having a ping pong match before making a very, very permanent like bottom surgery. Anything in the genitalia region is not done until after 18. So other surgical procedures can be done beforehand, because some of them are reversible. Which is why those are sometimes options for parents of younger kids, pre-pubescent kids can have a medical procedure that is reversible. So that is definitely an option.
Brenda 49:15
Okay, how long would you say - I know it varies. So this might be a moot point. But are you talking to yours then of the of the ping pong until it kind of lands in that zone that that consistent zone?
Sean 49:28
Yes and it depends on the age of the child. So the children I was seeing that are between six and eight had been consistent since they were three. So even though their age was still very young, they are so consistent. They have been socialized, they only know themselves as a boy even though they have girl parks. They only know that it's a very different experience than someone who's coming up to their parents that 15, 16 there are hormones, all kinds of things. So we just need to wait and see where they land and usually it does align with when they're going to go to college. Generally it gets more constant. Because at that point they're anticipating that they'd like to start college being seen differently. Yes. Right. That's a safer option by that time.
Brenda 50:12
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, I have to let you go, because you have lots of people to help. But I would love to ask just what is it that you love most about what you do?
Sean 50:23
I love to witness the birth of acceptance. I have had wonderful experiences of resistant families who have become the greatest supporters and advocates. And it is a joy and it requires patience and love along the way. And I, it is such a blessing that those families particularly let me into their emptiness without judgment and that they can get to the other side.
Brenda 50:51
Amazing. I love that. If only we could just have a little bit more of that birth of acceptance. thank you a million times over. This is incredible. I'm so grateful that you took the time to educate us to share your knowledge and we might be back for part two at some point because there's a lot to cover. But thank you for being with someone.
Sean 51:17
Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:51:19] Brenda
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at At Brendazane.com/podcast, each episode is listed there with a full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you'd like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight: Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It's full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.