the marijuana episode: the real deal about teens, weed and addiction with Dr. Nzinga Harrison
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
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Show Guest: Dr. Nzinga Harrison, Chief Medical Officer at Eleanor Health and podcast host of In Recovery
Show Resources:
Physicians for Criminal Justice Reform - Physicians advocating to eliminate the damaging health consequences that can result from negative interactions with the criminal justice system.
Health in Her Hue - A digital platform connecting Black women to culturally competent healthcare providers, telehealth services, and health content.
Show Transcript:
SPEAKERS
Brenda Zane, Dr. Nzinga Harrison
Brenda
Dr. Nzinga Harrison, I'm so thrilled to have you with me today. I'm a fan of your podcast so it's very exciting for me to have you on Hopestream. So thank you for making the time to come and be with me.
Dr. Harrison
Wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Brenda Zane
Yes. Well, I have stalked your podcast, it's so great, because you're just so down to earth and real and you don't beat around the bush. And I think it's exactly what people need to hear. So I loved hearing kind of your style. And then you did an episode called, actually weed is addictive. I believe that was the title of it. And I just was like, that's it. I'm calling her up, I've got to get her on my podcast.
Dr. Harrison 00:50
That was what gotcha.
Brenda Zane 00:51
It was because I have an online community for moms who have kids who range from, they just found a little baggie of weed in the backpack all the way through to, you know, they have a kid who's 15 years in addiction. And so one of the questions that comes up consistently is this topic of marijuana. And so, looking for somebody who can really speak to that topic, from lots of different angles, because you, I know, deal with addiction, not just drug and alcohol addiction, but all kinds of forms of addiction. I just thought you'd be great person to address this topic.
Dr. Harrison 01:33
Awesome. Let's jump in.
Brenda 01:35
Yeah. Before we do that, I'd like to ask a question just to let people get to know you a little bit better. And that is, what did you want to be when you were growing up?
Dr. Harrison 01:45
Well, I wanted to be a doctor.
Brenda 01:47
You did? Mission accomplished!
Dr. Harrison
I know, right? checkbox. What's next? I actually, when I was little said I would be a doctor and a teacher. So I think mission accomplished on both of those checkboxes, I hope, but I originally thought pediatrics, then I thought surgery. And then I fell into my love, which is psychiatry and Addiction Medicine. So not exactly what I envisioned, but definitely the right place.
Brenda
Yeah. What was it about psychiatry and Addiction Medicine that hooked you?
Dr. Harrison
So I did not know anything about psychiatry, except for this concept of Freud lay on my couch, tell me about your mother, which is very important. Like I am not disparaging that but did not tap my scientist physiology, chemistry, biology bone. When I got to medical school, and I should say growing up, I grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana, in the 80s, which was a super racist time, and my dad was commander of the local Black Panther militia.
Brenda
Wow, your dad was?
Dr. Harrison
my dad. I know. Right?
Brenda
How cool is that?
Dr. Harrison
Yes. And so that put activism in my bones. My mom was a public school teacher and also an activist. And so kind of activism and advocacy and standing up for oppressed and marginalized people was baked into me growing up. And so when I did my psychiatry rotation in medical school, which is one of the required rotations that every medical student has to do to earn your MD. Then I learned the science and the biology and the neurobiology and the physiology of the brain and the body as it related to thinking and feeling and behaving. And I was like, I'm hooked. And I saw the absolute, just horrible way that medical systems treated people that had psychiatric illnesses, and especially if there was also a drug disorder. And that tapped to my advocacy bone. And I was like, clearly, I was built for this.
Brenda
Nice. That's so awesome. That's so cool. How does that work? Do you first get an MD and then you just, you know, while you're at it, add a PhD, Like how does that actually work from an educational standpoint?
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, so I don't have a Ph.D. so Ph.D’s are psychology, right, physicians that specialize in psychiatry are psychiatrists. So you go to medical school, and that can be medical school can go one of two pathways. You can end with an MD which is a medical doctor, or you can end with a D.O. which is a doctor of osteopathy. Both of which are physicians, and then overseas there are different degrees so this is the US process, but you do your four years of college and then you do your four years of medical school where you have to learn competency in every single system in the body. So cardio, heart, lungs, GI, belly, intestines, surgery, emergency medicine, OB, psychiatry, all of the specialties, you get a baseline competence. And then you graduate medical school and you have your doctorate degree, whether that's MD or DO. And after that, you specialize. So you specialize in emergency medicine or family medicine or pediatrics, or psychiatry or obstetrics and gynecology. And so I did four years of psychiatry training after my MD, and now I'm a psychiatrist.
Brenda
Wow. Yeah. Okay. Well, you've spent a lot of time in school.
Dr. Harrison
Yeah. And I'm only 21…
Brenda
well, you kind of look like you're 21 so I wouldn't put that past you. But okay, that's amazing in itself, we can have a whole conversation about that. But back to our topic of marijuana, and I did ask the moms in my community I posted, you know, I'm talking to this doctor. And I would love to know what questions you have. And I think it's just hard because there is, as you know, legal and I think it's 15 states now from a recreational standpoint, and, you know, the party line from kids is, you know, it's legal, you're just overreacting. And so it's very complicated for parents, because I know, from my son's experience, and his friends, and a lot of the kids that I know, a deeper addiction can start with the experimentation with marijuana. So I think that's kind of the fear that's in the background of all these mom’s heads, which is why it becomes so, so big. Um, so I guess like, the first question that they all had is, is there a genetic risk for or predisposition to addiction? And then if there is kind of what is the difference between dependence and addiction? Because I think that gets really confusing for the average Joe person.
Dr. Harrison
So the answer to the first question, is there a genetic predisposition to addiction? And the answer is, yes, bold, underscore, exclamation point, font size 48.
Brenda
Yes, okay. That's interesting. That's really interesting to hear, because I think I haven't heard that be so clearly punctuated, and in a lot of places. And so that's really, really interesting. So from a medical standpoint, you know that,
Dr. Harrison
that is exactly right. And the reason that's so important is because knowing that piece of information gives you the power to practice an ounce of prevention. So substance use disorders function, just like every other chronic medical condition we have, I'm talking about high blood pressure, asthma, diabetes. And so when you look at any chronic medical illness, there's a genetic part, you're born with it, it's in your DNA, you got it from your mama, as they say, in the songs. And there's the environmental part, this is like nature- people say nature versus nurture. And I say yes, nature and nurture, always.
Dr. Harrison
And so the portion of addiction, and substance use disorders that is inherited is about 40%. It's between 40 and 60%, depending on what medical studies you look at, that is actually a little bit higher than the inherited risk for high blood pressure, it's a little bit higher than the inherited risk for asthma. It's about the same as the inherited risk for type two diabetes. And so I have a very, very significant family history of addiction. And so now, as a psychiatrist, I could look back and be like, I was destined to be a psychiatrist, but tons of addiction in my family. And so when I talk to my kids about addiction, we've been talking about it since they were about three and four years old, is you have a genetic predisposition to developing addiction. So your friend may be able to do a line of cocaine and be fine. Your risk analysis about that line of cocaine is different. Your friend might be able to smoke marijuana every day, and be fine. Your risk calculation about that marijuana is different, purely because of your DNA. I gave it to you.
Brenda
That is so fascinating. And so like you said, so important because if our kid did have a predisposition to diabetes, we would start talking about like you said, when they were little, and we would adjust their diet, and we would get preventative medical care. So that is incredible. It's kind of cool about knowing that too, as a fact is, it just makes it easier to have a conversation with a, say, a teenager or tween. Because it isn't like, oh, it's the drug talk. It can just be part of this is how we stay healthy. To prevent obesity, we work out to prevent this, we need to stay away from these particular things. So to me, it feels like it can kind of normalize it a little bit.
Dr. Harrison
It takes the stigma out of it. And the other way it takes the stigma out of it is because I'm saying to you, this is my DNA too, like, this is my DNA. I gave it to you, I'm doing great in life. Part of the reason I'm doing great in life is because I knew my risk. And so that helped with the choices that I made to try to keep me safer, even though, you know, I still did my share of for sure at risk drinking.
Brenda
Right, and did your parents talk to you about it when you were growing up?
Dr. Harrison
My parents? I don't remember that at all. So I apologize if they did, because I remember, I just brought my kids on my own podcast. And I was like, how old were you when we started talking about drugs? And they were like, maybe last year? And I was like, What? If my parents listen, and you did talk to me about drugs, and I don't remember it, then I apologize for mis-characterizing that.
Brenda
I love it. But you don't remember it being a conversation about your DNA
Dr. Harrison
Definitely was not DNA. But, and this is on my mom's side where we have drug addiction on both my mom's side and my dad's side. But on my mom's side, it was very much like we all knew those of our family members who were dealing with addiction, and it was the compassion that you can always come home, which is like my approach as a psychiatrist. Now I definitely got it from growing up. So it wasn't hidden. We all knew this member is struggling with addiction. We love them any way they can always come home, but this is what they're going through type of thing.
Brenda
Okay, so then my question is the under 50 to 60% of people who don't necessarily have that gene. What about them? Like, can they still become addicted? Or do they just have less of a chance?
Dr. Harrison
Okay, so let me correct just a little bit. You said the other 60% of people. So it's not that 40% of people have a risk of addiction and 60% of people don't. It is instead, one individual human being - 40% of that individual's chance of developing addiction is driven by their family history.
Brenda
big distinction.
Dr. Harrison
So it's an important distinction because just purely because of our culture in the United States, every single person has some risk of addiction. Because we romanticize marijuana, we romanticize alcohol. We even call hard dangerous drug use quote partying, which makes it sound fun. Just culturally, all of us is at risk. There are different things in the environment that can that can temper that risk. So if I can tweak your question just a little bit and say, Okay, if my risk is 40 to 60%, and I don't know anybody in my family who has had drug addiction, am I still at risk? The answer is yes.
Brenda
Okay. Got it.
Dr. Harrison
You may be less at risk, you are less at risk than a person with a stacked family history like me, but you are still at risk because innately drugs have biologically addicting properties that any animal, not just human beings, rats, and monkeys, get addicted to drugs.
Brenda
Okay, that's really that's a very good distinction. Thank you for that. Because I think there can be a tendency to think, oh, well, I don't, nobody in my family's got it. So I'm good to go. But that sounds like that is definitely not the way to be thinking.
Dr. Harrison
Definitely not.
Brenda
Okay, got it. So then, when we're thinking about teens, you know, people who are, let's say, 13, you know, up to 18 or so, because after 18, we lose a little bit of our ability to control what's going on.
Dr. Harrison
If it only happens at 18.
Brenda
Yes. But you know, there is this there is sort of this cultural attitude and I'm up in Washington State. I live in Seattle. And so we're very, very liberal, and marijuana, you know, is legal for recreational use, and there's just sort of this attitude of like, you know, it's just weed, it's fine. But when you're thinking about an adolescent brain, I think there's obviously there's a reason why they made it legal at 21. I can't say that that's right or wrong, because I don't know. But I'm imagining that in a younger brain, there's more risk for damage, than there is an older brain, is there more risk for addiction? Like, how does that work?
Dr. Harrison
You're exactly right. That's exactly why the number is 21. And that's more because we already have 21. For alcohol, we know that the brain continues to develop well into your mid-20s. So if we were doing it purely on brain science, that number would probably be 26 years old. But 21 years old already exists, so I'll take it. Because right, yes, the younger a person starts using, the more impact there is on the brain. We know that. And I'll slide your number you said 13, because I keep talking about teenagers, but I'll actually slide that down to 10 years old, if we can so that we can capture our preteens?
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, we know that our preteens and teens that are using marijuana regularly have poor school performance. They have increased depression, they have increased anxiety. They have increased symptoms consistent with ADHD, it's impossible to tease apart ADHD, from the cognitive effects of marijuana, which are very similar. We know that our 16 plus-year-olds who are using marijuana regularly are driving under the influence. And that contributes to accidents and death. And we know that when young people start using heavily so this is like heavy daily use earlier than the age of 14, that predicts actually a loss of eight IQ points, that predicts lower educational attainment that predicts being on public assistance and Medicaid that predicts difficulty and occupation later in life. So the earlier our kids start regularly using marijuana, the consequences stack up on them. I'm sorry, I should say using it heavily, because it's an important distinction.
Brenda
And heavily - what is that
Dr. Harrison
Daily, multiple times per day.
Brenda
Okay, that's actually really terrifying. I don't want to just gloss over that. Because I have so many questions. That's really terrifying to hear all of those, those things that are happening, because that's definitely not what kids are thinking when they're hanging out after school. Smoking and you know, granted, they can't think that far ahead. But that's really fascinating is the product that kids are using today. I say kids, but I mean, you know, young people, is it a fundamentally different product than like I went to high school in the 80s. I don't know that it was the same. But I've heard that it's much stronger, much different. Is that true?
Dr. Harrison
It is true. So whole marijuana leaf has hundreds of different compounds in it. But we can pull out the biggest two which are THC, which most people have heard of, and CBD. When you look at THC that's really the chemical alcohol that drives intoxication from marijuana and drives all of those negative effects that I just described to you the IQ symptoms, the cognitive performance, the depression, the anxiety, the impairment, that can lead to accidents by driving, all of that is mediated through THC. When you and I were younger, I'm just making the assumption that I'm not older than you which might
Brenda
I'm older than you. I was in high school in the 80s.
Dr. Harrison
A little bit, yeah. Back then, the potency, the THC potency of that weed was about one seventh to one 10th of what we have today. So you would have to smoke 10 times the amount of marijuana of 80's marijuana to get the THC load that our kids are getting today from the potency of marijuana that's on the street. And that's why we're seeing a concentration of the negative effects more than we did during the flowerpower times because they were smoking tons of weed. It just was not as potent.
Brenda
Got it. That is, wow. Because I know there's so many different sort of form factors. So smoking it, versus dabbing versus vaping versus edibles. I'm assuming that just based on the physiology of your body that that's having a different impact is one worse than the other, like, if you were to say, eating, it's gonna be less impactful or harmful, kind of what's the story with all these different form factors?
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, so I practice what's called harm reduction. And it means I take care of people who are using drugs, even while they're still using drugs. So a lot of a lot of treatment programs require you to stop using to be able to be in treatment, and we're like, No, we can reduce harm even while the person is using. So with the caveat being, as long as we're talking about the same amount, and the same frequency of marijuana, then the order that it goes in is smoking whole leaf is the most dangerous. The reason is the most dangerous is because anything you burn, and inhale into your lungs, is increasing the risk for lung damage, anything that you burn is increasing the risk for cancer, increasing the risk for asthma, anything that you inhale, your lungs have the largest network of blood vessels, and short of shooting it straight into your vein, that is the fastest way to deliver a chemical to your brain, the faster you deliver it to your brain, the faster the high combs, the more risk of getting addicted, okay? So smoking is the most dangerous because it's the fastest and burning anything and putting into your body is introducing cancer risk and burning anything and inhaling it into your lungs is just asking for badness from your lungs, right?
Dr. Harrison
There's that. Move to vaping- vaping is inhaling steam. So you're still going to get that fast, rapid effect, because you're going through the blood vessels in the lungs we call capillary. So you're going through the capillary systems in the lungs, delivering that to your brain fast or quick, high. That's increasing the risk of addiction, but you're not burning it. So I'll take it, that's a step. Okay, right, you're still inhaling it. So lungs are still irritated and inflamed by vaping. The other part of vaping is that there are other chemicals in that vaping cartridge that we have to worry about that we're still learning about. And that was the vaping scare we had with young people going in the ICU and dying from like severe inflammation of their lungs. That was not marijuana. But those are the other chemicals in the vaping cartridge that we have to worry about. Right? I'll take it over smoking the whole plant, then, you get to edibles and edibles is the safest way to take a whole marijuana plant because you eat it. It goes through your stomach, like gets through the acid, right? Makes it through the acid in your liver clears out probably about two-thirds of it, then it has to go through your gut. And it takes this really slow path and then eventually it gets to your brain and the high comes on kind of like slow and isn't very intense. That reduces the risk of addiction because it takes so long, and your liver clears out most of the dose before it gets there. You don't have the risk to your lungs, you're not introducing the cancer risk, because you're not burning anything and putting it in your body. And so edibles are the least harmful way to take plant, or marijuana whole plant followed by vaping followed by smoking. answer, but
Brenda
It made total sense. And I think that's really, really helpful to understand what's going on in your body when you consume that in various ways. So that's super, super helpful. And I think it's interesting what you said kind of going back to the ADHD because I know from our family's experience and so many that these you know, younger kids are getting diagnosed with ADHD. They try you know, a Ritalin or Focalin or one of these medications and hate them because they make them feel weird or whatever. Not all but some like in our family's experience that medication didn't work, but then they find weed. And it's like, Mom, this is the only time I feel normal. This is the only time my brain isn't jumping around and you know, so they're definitely using it to self medicate for ADHD. But then what you're saying is I don't know if this is if there's a timeframe for it, but it's actually going to make it worse. Right? It's that's that's isn't a way to self medicate for ADHD. Is that right?
Dr. Harrison
That is exactly right. And a lot of our young people who are having ADHD symptoms also have significant anxiety burden, but it's not necessarily rising to a diagnostic threshold. Like you don't get a diagnosis of anxiety because we don't see that impairing your schoolwork, we see your concentration symptoms, impairing your schoolwork. But when they smoke marijuana, a lot of times what they're experiencing is a relief of that anxiety. And that's why they feel their thoughts pulled together. Because think about when you're anxious and overwhelmed. And you're like, oh, like, just take a minute, take a deep breath, try to get my thoughts together. That's how anxiety affects our thoughts, too. And so you smoke that marijuana and you think marijuana is treating my ADHD, it's probably more likely treating anxiety, which we know 100% absolutely is the case. That's the CBD in the marijuana. What we also know is that with regular use THC makes cognitive performance worse. So it makes ADHD symptoms worse. It makes anxiety worse, THC does, and for those who are genetically predisposed to psychotic symptoms, it can actually cause psychosis, paranoia being the main type of psychosis.
Brenda
Okay, because that was another question that a lot of the moms in my community had was about psychosis because they are seeing it in their kids. And the kids are saying, I'm just smoking weed, or I'm vaping or whatever, there's they swear, I don't not, I'm not taking anything else. yet. They're seeing this really scary level of psychosis. So is that a new thing? Or because I? I don't remember. And I mean, not that I was really involved in the marijuana culture in high school, but is this a new thing with the psychosis or what's the story with that?
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, so the story with that is that 10 times seven to 10 times potency story, right? THC is what we call psychogenic means it can cause psychosis. And so the more potent the marijuana you're smoking, the smaller the dose you will have to smoke to be at risk for developing those psychotic symptoms. If your brain is already predisposed, or at risk for psychosis, so you have a family history of psychosis or you've had psychosis yourself, then even less marijuana, you would have to smoke to be at risk for developing psychosis. But the third thing is, if you're buying your marijuana off the street, you have no idea what you're using, right? Marijuana is being cut with so many different things. And so this is another harm reduction intervention that I make with my folks who are using marijuana so I tried to move them from smoking to vaping to edibles to CBD. That's my projection
Brenda
I love that - like the Dr. Harrison paths to better use
Dr. Harrison 28:22
to safer marijuana use. The other thing is, and this is the beautiful upside of marijuana legalization is that I can point a person to a dispensary where that marijuana is regulated, where I know you're not getting embalming fluid which is common, where I'm getting PCP, which is common, where I know you're not getting MDMA, which is common, where I know you're not getting cocaine, which is common where I know you're not getting fentanyl, which will overdose and kill you and all you are trying to do is smoke a joint. I try to get people away from their dealer to a dispensary so that I can remove that part of the risk.
Brenda
Wow. Yeah, that is super, super scary. I didn't know that. My son overdosed from fentanyl and I did - he lived - but I didn't know that they were finding marijuana with fentanyl cut into it.
Dr. Harrison Oh my goodness, I'm talking about everything. So I'm the chief medical officer and co-founder of Eleanor Health. We take care of people with substance use disorder, not adolescence yet, so come back to me.
Brenda
Every mom listening is like looking you up right now.
Dr. Harrison
We're close, we're only about a quarter away. So go to the website. Take a look. We'll keep you updated because we want to be taking care of our kiddos. But we do drug screens, you know like 1000s of drug screens a month on the people that we're taking care of. And the number of times we get a drug screen and that person is like, okay, yes, I used that. But I didn't use any of those other things that are in there. And it's true. They didn't intentionally use them. But it was in the marijuana you bought, or it was in the heroin that you bought, and you had no idea that it had been cut with that. It is dangerous in the street.
Brenda
Wow. That is really, really frightening. Yeah, and especially if we're talking young people who are under 21, they're not going into a dispensary, right. They're definitely getting it off the street. So that's, that is really good for parents to be aware of. And I love the idea of harm reduction. And I think you should trademark your little path to safer use. Because I think that's brilliant. I can see a logo already.
Dr. Harrison
Like a little cannabis leaf.
Brenda
What could a parent, how could a parent approach harm reduction for somebody who is under 21? Like, how does that work?
Dr. Harrison
This is my favorite question. So what I hope parents listening will get out of us talking even if they don't get biological risk and inheritance factor and Dr. Harrison's path to harm reduction. And all of this is the way to have this conversation with your teenagers. First of all, our teenagers are skeptical of us. Because they need to be - they're learning to think for themselves. They're learning to draw their own conclusions. It's an incredibly important part of human psychological and emotional development, to develop the autonomy to make the choices for yourself. And so what we as parents have to do is not take this, I told you don't ever smoke weed, because it's dangerous, or you're gonna die, and I'm making that decision for you. And if you make a different decision, you're getting in trouble. Right? It will never work, right? It will never work.
Dr. Harrison
The approach we want to take instead is I'm going to give you all the information I have. My recommendation, of course, this what I say to my kids, if I have my choice, you would never ever smoke weed, because we have enough schizophrenia and addiction in our family for me to know how high that risk is. But I understand that you have to make your own choices. So number one, you will never get in trouble for coming to me to ask me for help. If you think you're getting into risky waters, you will never get in trouble from me. Number two, it is my responsibility as a parent to try to keep you safe. So you will get random drug screens, and you will get random drug screens because I don't know where you got it from. I don't know what was in it. You don't know what was in it. Unless we look. Number three. If you are at a party, and you get stupid, stupid, stupid drunk, you can call me no problem. Even if you don't, when you get home, I'm gonna breathalyze you and I'm gonna drug screen you just tell me what's in it, you're not gonna get in trouble for what's in it, I just need to know that you can tell me because if we can't have this conversation, your risk is higher. Number four, you are biologically loaded. That's what I say to mine, that depends on history for your kids, but you are biologically loaded. Your friends using might not be the same as you using. So I just need you to be able to do your own risk analysis. And then you will make your decisions. And you will have the consequences of those decisions. The consequences will never be that you can't come home. The consequences will never be that you can't tell me what you did. But if you start having consequences, then we know you're getting at risky waters, and I'm going to try to figure out how to help. That's how I have the conversation with my kids.
Brenda
That's amazing. Because you're right, most parents do start out with the Don't you ever, if I ever find out, you know, blah, blah, blah, and I'm pretty sure 110% of the time that does not work. And there's just shouting and yelling and then the kids are sneaking around.
Dr. Harrison
And it's because we're scared, right like we started this entire episode with all the scary things about marijuana and the other drugs that we talked about. The scariness gets higher and higher and higher and higher as we go. Like if I had to build a scary drug chart, I would put marijuana at the bottom. That doesn't mean there's no scary, that's about it because we just talked about all the scariness but we're afraid for our kids as parents and so we let that fear come out in a patriarchal, commanding way. And it's just not in keeping with what the adolescent developmental need is, which is to be able to make my own decisions. Or to be able to trust you, when I'm not sure about this decision that I can come talk to you about it without getting in trouble.
Brenda
Right, because what I hear from parents is, you know, my kid is smoking, maybe not every day, but maybe three or four times a week. And I'm not really seeing any consequences from it. Should I be worried? And that's where I think it gets confusing for parents, because it's like, I don't know, is this okay? And I think what you're saying is to be having the conversation to say, it might not be okay. But you just don't know, it's a little bit of Russian Roulette. Is that true?
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, I think that is a perfect way to put it Russian Roulette and I don't want you to shoot yourself in the head. Like if I had my druthers, you would not put the gun to your head at all. And, like, one of the ways to think about that is like if we have a family history of any addiction at all, including alcohol and cigarettes, that's another bullet in the chamber. We have any other mental health conditions in our family at all depressive anxiety, bipolar disorder, ADHD? That's another bullet in the chamber. If you have experienced any trauma in your early life, or any instability, or if there's any difficulty in our familial relationships, that's another bullet in the chamber. Yeah,
Brenda
and who doesn't have that?
Dr. Harrison
Right. Right. If you're not getting it from a dispensary, that's another bullet in the chamber. And so it's really teaching kids like, if you're gonna put the gun to your head, I mean, I wouldn't say it like that, because that's dramatic. But you know, yeah, if you're going to take the risk, at least, put as few bullets in the chamber as possible. And then the other side of that is, and here's how you know, when you're getting in trouble, did you use to only smoke once a week, if you're smoking four times a week, now, that's a sign that you're getting in trouble. You used to have all A's, and now you have A's and B's, and you're like, that's okay. It's actually a sign that you're getting in trouble. If you never used to fight with your parents, and now you're fighting with your parents over weed. That's a sign that you're probably getting into risky waters. And so you arm them with that information. So that when you see it, because we'll see it as parents before they do, we can come back to them and say, Hey, remember, when we had this conversation about red flags, I feel like I see these in you. And I'm worried about it. So I want to make sure I opened the opportunity for us to have this conversation.
Brenda
Yeah. And that's just such a better dynamic to have in the household than the secrecy and the, the yelling and the drama that goes on. So it is really to me, it sounds like a much more adult type of a conversation than an authoritarian, authoritative, you will do this or you won't do that. It just feels like a very respectful and adult conversation to have.
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, and we don't necessarily usually think about approaching our kids that way, especially what I say, start at 10, approach a 10-year-old the same way. Just like I say to my kids, I trust you to make the best decision you can make with the information that you have. I also know that you haven't been alive long enough to have all the information that you need to have. And I also know that sometimes your choices will be different than my choices. And I also know that we're all humans. So sometimes we're just making bad choices. We do that - that happens. It happens. And sometimes you say this is what my 15-year-old says, that was a bad choice. I would do it again. That was a bad choice. I would not make it again. I'm like okay, so...
Brenda
That's perfect. I like when you talked about you won't get in trouble if you tell me that you're struggling. Because that is a fear that a lot of kids have is oh, I could never tell my mom that I'm struggling because she'll gonna freak out and she's gonna ship me off to wilderness therapy and you know, like, it's gonna be this massive thing. And so if you've started the conversation years earlier, or even now if you're in the thick of it, I think that's another thing is for parents who are saying okay, great. Well, my kid isn't 10 they're 17. They're smoking every day. How do I start this conversation with them? Because all we've been doing is yelling and screaming and shouting and hiding and fighting, like, what would your thoughts be for somebody who's right now got a 17-year-old? They're pretty sure all they're doing is smoking weed. However, you never know. It could be something else. What, what would you say to them?
Dr. Harrison
I say, hey, listen, I was listening to this podcast today. And I realized that I have been coming at you all wrong about the marijuana thing. The way I've been coming to you, makes it seem like I'm mad at you. And makes it seem like I don't care when actually I'm coming at you because I care. And because I'm worried and because I'm afraid. This is what I learned today. If you buy your weed from the street, we don't know what's in it, we should take a look at a drug screen just so that we can know. These are the signs of addiction. I feel like I see this in you and it usually gets worse. So we should try to chop it off at the legs. But we have to be able to have a conversation about it without screaming and hollering. If we're ever gonna think about doing that. And just like open it just like easy-breezy, open it up.
Dr. Harrison
But just started out with because you know, our kids love to hear us say like, you know, I jacked that up, right. I love it. They're like, Oh my god, I live for these moments. I will go back to my kids and be like, you know what, the way I approached you earlier today was not helpful. I'm sorry about that. This is what I think it was about. I think you just do it that way. Listen, I'm learning. I listen to this podcast. I learned I keep coming to you better about this. So this is me trying to come at you in a different way.
Brenda
Love that. Yes, that that is great. Because we all have enough, enough anxiety and in all that we don't need more in our houses. And it can I think kids, we sometimes don't give them enough credit for actually engaging with us in in a kind of a positive and constructive way. We just assume it's always going to be negative. It's always going to be yelling. But if we go at it like the way you just said, I think sometimes we can be really surprised that they will engage because that you know they're living this they're also feeling it I know my son now he's on the other side in recovery. But he said yeah, you know, I kind of started thinking like, hmm, I'm doing this every day now. I didn't used to do that. They're aware. And they just need an outlet you know, a non-scary, non-freak-out-ish outlet to be able to have the conversation.
Dr. Harrison
That's right. And I tell my kids listen. I don't promise not to freak out when you tell me because I don't know what you're about to tell me right? And it might freak me out. What I do promise to do is get control of myself. I might need a timeout and listen and be on your side. Like you can always count on me to be on your side well I don't promise I'm not gonna freak out. You might tell me something this freak-out-able right now, you know?
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah, they definitely can do that.
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, I'm a mom - these fears run deep for us about our kids
Brenda
they do, they do. I think your comments on CBD, and maybe we will have to have a part two on CBD, but I wonder if that's something - I don't know, I've used CBD cream, I had shoulder surgery and it was really helpful because I didn't want to use opioids, and so I got a nice CBD stick and I wonder if that's something that you know, you have the 17-year-old with ADHD, doesn't want to take the Ritalin and all of that. I wonder if that's something that they could try are any, like are doctors doing that?
Dr. Harrison
They're definitely are doctors doing it. And so you know, CBD does not get approved by the FDA and when you're using it in kids there are different types of risks. So I think you might be hard-pressed to find a doctor to write a kid a prescription of CBD. I write my adults, like I prescribe CBD to my adults regularly. But CBD can be safely used in kids, I have a friend. And it's always the worst like doctors hate it when people say I have a friend. A friend does not equal medical evidence. There's medical evidence of the safety of CBD and the effectiveness of CBD. And I have a friend who had her son who hated his stimulant exactly the same way. Did he I think he was around 13 started using CBD for his ADHD plus anxiety. Just had a beautiful experience with no side effects that likely prevented the risks that come with addiction for untreated other mental health conditions. You don't hear me on record saying Dr. Harrison say give me the kid. No. But on Dr. Harrison's harm reduction pathway, you heard CBD,
Brenda
It's on the path. It's a stepping stone on the path. Oh my gosh, so many questions. I want to hear about what you're working on. One last question that I don't think we covered is would a kid potentially shift an addiction? So maybe they have a parent with a gambling addiction or a shopping addiction, right? So something that's not necessarily chemically based? And they're smoking weed? They kind of managed to get off of that, isn't it? Does that happen? Like would a kid then maybe later in life or even just like they pick up online gambling? What do you think about that?
Dr. Harrison
Yes, underscore bold and italics font size 48. Okay, exclamation point.
Brenda
Okay!
Dr. Harrison
One thing, and this was the beautiful thing that I learned when I did my psychiatry rotation, all behavior, by the time it gets in the brain, is chemical and electrical. So while we think of gambling addiction as different from alcohol addiction as different from marijuana addiction as different from opioid addiction, it is the same neurobiological pathway. So if your neurobiological pathway predisposes you to addiction, it predisposes you to addiction of all sorts. Now, certain addictions will cluster in the family. So there will be families that have alcohol addiction, and no other drug addiction. Still, the risk for all addictions is elevated in that family just not as high as it is elevated for alcohol.
Brenda
Got it. Okay. So it sounds like then the need really is to recognize that, that do you call it a tendency or a predisposition?
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, I like the word predisposition or risk, okay. Because tendency tends to have the connotation of that element of choice that we inaccurately ascribe to addictions, like, you could just choose to not have it. So I usually try to medicalize it a bit, just to remind people that we're talking about brain chemistry.
Brenda Yeah, that makes sense. So you just you have to know that and you have to recognize that and, and know that it could apply to to something that's, you know, not substance-based, because like you said, it is within the, in the system within the body. It's the same.
Dr. Harrison
Yeah, yep.
Brenda
I'm learning so much. This is exciting. Wow. So we have like three minutes left, what are you working on? Or what are you excited about? It's been a year, year and a bit. And there's been a lot of negative what are you excited about? Or what are you working on that has you thinking positively.
Dr. Harrison
So I will give four of my favorite projects that I'm working on. Number one always is Eleanor Health, where I'm co-founder and Chief Medical Officer. So we take care of folks affected by addiction, you don't have to have it yourself, affected by or at risk for developing addiction. And we're in North Carolina and New Jersey, we just opened Massachusetts and Washington and we are about to open Ohio and Louisiana. So definitely look us up on eleanorhealth.com - what I really love is our commitment to the community. So even if you're not in one of the states where we're taking care of folks or even if you don't necessarily feel like you need or want quote, treatment, we have free online support groups, for people who are using for the loved ones of people who are using for people who are not using an in recovery that are just free and online. No commitment, no nothing. Get support.
Brenda
so awesome.
Dr. Harrison
Number two, the podcast, which is how we came to know each other. In Recovery with Dr. Nzinga Harrison, I absolutely love it's a question and answer show.
Brenda
It's so good. It's so awesome. Everybody has to go listen to it.
Dr. Harrison
Oh my gosh, I have just been like my heart just burst with how open and sharing people are is like incredible, I love it. The third thing I'll say, is I newly signed on as a clinical advisor for Health In Her Hue, which is a platform that connects black women to health care providers of color for culturally competent and sensitive health care. So that's incredible. I love it. Then the last one. Oh, and so these are number 2,3,4 and five, because number one is my husband and kids.
Brenda
Of course,
Dr. Harrison
as I think of them as an afterthought, so awful. Five is I'm actually co-founder of Physicians For Criminal Justice Reform, which is an advocacy organization, one of our biggest points of advocacy is the decriminalization of substance use disorders. So helping people get to treatment instead of jail. And you don't have to be a physician to join. We need all specialists of all sorts, who are passionate about this and, and being human can be your specialty. So that's Physicians For Criminal Justice Reform.
Brenda
Awesome, is that on Eleanor Health? Will they see that? or How did they find out more about that?
Dr. Harrison
that's separate, so you can just Google that - the website is PFCJreform.org. But if you just Google physicians for criminal justice reform, you'll find it
Brenda
Awesome. Yes, you and Dr. Jordan are just killing it in that area. I know she's doing the same thing. She's trying to recruit physicians, because it's, it sounds like a struggle, because it's a lot of money and a lot of years in school.
Dr. Harrison
It's so true. It is a long time, but still worth it. Like so worth it the impact you can make the people who invite you to share their lives with them.
Brenda
Yeah, thank you a million times. This has just been so helpful. And I may be calling you back for part two.
Dr. Harrison
I will pick up the phone
Brenda
I love it. It's always so hard to fit everything into an hour, I can see why some like, I don't know, like Rich Roll and some of these guys have these podcasts are two and a half, three hours long. And I used to think that was crazy. And I'm like, well, I could do that.
Dr. Harrison
I know. Right.
Brenda
Thank you, thank you. I will list all of these resources in the show notes for people so you can go there and get them. And we'll stay in touch and see what you are doing. I love it.
Dr. Harrison
Oh, thank you so much. This has been so fun.
Brenda
Yes, thank you have a great rest of your day and thanks for joining me.
If you're a mom listening to this and thinking, there must be other moms out there listening to, I can tell you that there are thousands of other moms that are searching for this same information. And for a more personal connection. You can find me and a bunch of these moms by going to my website, BrendaZane.com. And there you will get lots of information about a really special online community of moms called The Stream. We have regular calls and chat sessions. We do a monthly yoga class for stress and anxiety. And it's all positively focused. It is not on Facebook, and it's completely confidential. Membership is on a pay what you can model, so if you want to join this community, and you need the support, you are in.
You might also want to download my free ebook called HINDSIGHT: Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted To Drugs. It is packed with information that I truly wish I had known back in the darker years with my son. And so I share it now in case it might be helpful to you in your journey. You can get that at Brendazane.com/hindsight, and I will put a link to both of these resources in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for listening. I'll meet you right back here next week.