Trading Control & Punishment for Respect & Emotional Intelligence, with Ann Coleman
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Ann Coleman, Speaking of Teens
Free ebook: “Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen Misuses Drugs or Alcohol, by Brenda Zane. Download here
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HOPESTREAM COMMUNITY
The private, online community for parents with kids misusing substances and struggling with mental health. Not connected to Facebook or any social media, it’s your place to learn skills, become more strategic in helping your child, and get healthier for yourself and your family.
About this episode:
After watching her brother's life cut short by substance use, Ann Coleman was intimately familiar with its dangers. So when her son - who already suffered from anxiety and depression - started using marijuana, hallucinogens and opiates, her trauma and instincts of fear and control kicked in hard. Looking back, Ann recognizes that at the time she believed her son was solely to blame for the unraveling of the relationship. Now, she knows better.Episode summary:
Episode Resources:
Ann Coleman’s website: Speaking of Teens
No Drama Discipline: The Whole-Brain Way to Calm the Chaos and Nurture Your Child's Developing Mind
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Ann
Let your kid know. Look, I've been wrong. I just realized that I've been wrong. That this was not the way that I needed to react to this. I did not have control of my emotions. This is what I've learned. I am going to do my best to be different and to react different. And here's what I hope happens and here's how your brain works and here's why.
I think maybe you're reacting. You know, in these ways, you can't help how your brain works because kids not knowing that it has to be confusing.
Brenda
You're listening to Hope Stream. If you're a parent, a young person who misuses substances is in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery. You're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me. Brenda Sane, your host and fellow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents.
00;01;13;19 - 00;01;40;02
Brenda
So after the episode, head over to our Web site at Hope's Dream Community Talk. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath. Exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. Hello, friend. So good to be here with you today. I am reminded how every week we meet here. You're soaking up more knowledge, more encouragement, ideas to try.
00;01;40;04 - 00;02;04;24
Brenda
And it's a great act of self-care to pause whatever's going on and tune in to the podcast. It really inspires me because I know the things you deal with. And I know even if your child is in recovery, there is still a lot to learn and you need to keep your optimism and positivity on point. So regardless of where your child is now, the fact that you're here is awesome.
00;02;04;26 - 00;02;39;16
Brenda
You get to hear a fantastic conversation today. I sat down with and Coleman, who is a mom, a lawyer, podcaster, an advocate for parenting teens with more warmth, respect, an emotional intelligence, and less control and punishment. And son struggled with anxiety, depression and drug misuse, which was exacerbated by ADHD for a couple of very rough years when he was in high school ands attempt to fix him and control his behavior made things much worse.
00;02;39;19 - 00;03;13;17
Brenda
Can you relate? In the four years since she figured out how to actually help him and repair their relationship? She has undertaken a course of self-study that she says makes her law school days look like kindergarten. She has dissected the concepts that help them turn things around in their family, and she has examined parenting teens from every perspective, from neuroscience to mindfulness and everything in between, and is full of energy and enthusiasm for helping parents avoid the mistakes she made.
00;03;13;19 - 00;03;45;17
Brenda
And you're going to love her passion for the work she does now. Take a listen and I will see you on the other side. And welcome to Hoop Stream. This is going to be such a great conversation. Mom to mom. Yes. I'm so excited. There's a lot of similarities we have.
00;03;45;17 - 00;03;47;25
Ann
I think we get each other.
00;03;47;28 - 00;04;15;25
Brenda
Yes. Yes, it is. It is always a relief to talk with another parent. And I think moms in particular, because we just we have a knowing about each other of the things that we've been through to the feelings we felt. The terror when the thug shows up at your door with a gun because they're trying to collect the money from your kid who's selling drugs like all of it.
00;04;15;28 - 00;04;31;08
Brenda
So you are a lawyer, you are a lawyer, and you kind of make this pivot based on something that happened in your life. Talk a little bit about what that was like for you, and then we're going to get into some more of the stuff stuff. But.
00;04;31;11 - 00;04;58;20
Ann
Well, I mean, really, the reason I made that pivot was just because as I was figuring out things with my son and all the mistakes that I'd made and where I had gone wrong, it was such a revelation to me. I mean, all the information that just kind of suddenly dropped into my lap and I started figuring things out and I thought, you know, I'm a pretty smart cookie and I did not know this stuff.
00;04;58;23 - 00;05;23;12
Ann
I had no clue how bad I was screwing up. I thought it was all him and not me. And I know if I feel this way and if I went through this so, you know, blind, that there are many, many, many other people out there who are going through it blind. And I can't in good conscience just sit here and not spread the word and not try to educate people about this.
00;05;23;12 - 00;05;46;14
Ann
So that's really where that came from. And at first I just started studying and I spent a good two years probably just studying and reading and reading research and, you know, reading all the books and reading everything and wrote myself a book with like, you know, hundreds of citations so that I could kind of prove to myself that I understood it all before I really started, you know, educating other people.
00;05;46;14 - 00;06;07;27
Ann
And during that time, I was still practicing law as much as I could. And, you know, I started just kind of ignoring clients a little at a time here and there and like not returning phone calls. And so just gradually, I've just really worked myself out of it 100% now. So, yeah, I just, I just felt like I had to do it.
00;06;07;27 - 00;06;15;01
Ann
I just felt like there was no other way. I had to educate people and that's why I made that kind of the switch gradually.
00;06;15;04 - 00;06;37;05
Brenda
Yeah, I was the same. I felt that it would have been irresponsible of me to just sort of go through this experience, come out the other side, and then like, okay, well, that's over and keep on going when there are, like you said, so many parents who are in the struggle, we don't get the information that we need.
00;06;37;07 - 00;07;04;00
Brenda
I think of all the times I was talking with a pediatrician or a therapist first or whoever, and they were just they didn't really have a lot to offer me. And I just think what other life threatening disease that children are suffering from? Yeah. Do you get no information or you get. Well, there's this Al-Anon meeting down the street that, you know, you could try going to that and nothing against Al-Anon for sure.
00;07;04;00 - 00;07;11;22
Brenda
But, you know, that's not a solution when you're 15 year old is living a lifestyle that could kill them.
00;07;11;22 - 00;07;37;11
Ann
Right. Well, and you bring up a really good point. And that's that's something else that really kind of weighs on my heart that we had. God, I don't even know how many psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, therapists, drug therapist, I mean, the pediatrician, the you know, the person that gave us the ADHD medication. I mean, everyone involved knew what was going on, knew what was going on at home.
00;07;37;14 - 00;08;09;17
Ann
You know, we explained it over and over and over again, and yet no one had the I don't know if they didn't know how to explain what we were doing wrong or if they. I really I thought about this and thought about this. And what how can psychologists and psychiatrists, these educated people, counselors who are supposed to be knowledgeable about helping us work through these issues, how can they not know to ask the most basic of questions?
00;08;09;20 - 00;08;29;15
Ann
You know, how are you communicating with your child? Do you have a grip on your own emotions? Are you ADHD? Do you have anxiety? How you know, how does this go down at home? None of those questions were asked. We got no instructions on how to interact with him personally. It just it still to this day blows my mind.
00;08;29;15 - 00;08;38;09
Ann
And that's why I feel like I have to step in and say these things because it's it's just not being said enough.
00;08;38;11 - 00;09;18;07
Brenda
Right. In in what that turns into at least what I've seen and what I experience and I be curious about your experience is parents feeling that I'm doing something wrong. I have failed as a parent and or my child is totally screwed up and broken and something's, you know, drastically wrong. And so you kind of get into this spiral of negativity and shame and blame and doom, which then prevents you, I think, from at least it prevented me from really seeking treatment and seeking help faster, which would have been a really good thing for us.
00;09;18;10 - 00;09;50;03
Brenda
And so I think it's just yeah, I think it's vitally important. And there are resources out there, there are therapists, there are people who do understand how to ask those questions, but it's not it's not the default, right? The default I found when we were starting to seek help with the the local resources and I'm such a nerd, I think, you know, we sound similar in that we'd like kind of dive deep into something that I mapped out because I was in marketing.
00;09;50;04 - 00;10;12;12
Brenda
I used to do customer journeys and so I would I mapped out like the journey, like what are the intersection points along the way where help could come into the picture sooner. And, you know, like you guys, I think you start out with a local therapist or maybe the high school or the middle school. What are the resources there?
00;10;12;14 - 00;10;27;28
Brenda
The police? I don't know about you, but I had police standing in my living room a lot. And so I think those are the early intervention points that could have provided some resources. And all I got were like the question Mark Cam's like, Right. I knew I was going to be dead or in jail sooner, you know?
00;10;28;05 - 00;10;28;27
Ann
Right.
00;10;28;29 - 00;10;48;03
Brenda
So that's what I think is really important, is that we start getting knowledge and resources and information into the hands of parents, obviously, but into the hands of some of these early interceptors. Yeah. What was what were some of the early interceptors for you? Who were those people or what were those experiences?
00;10;48;08 - 00;11;07;22
Ann
Well, I mean, you know, part of the problem was that there there weren't the the high school counselors and the the therapists, you know, that are supposed to, you know, everybody says, will go to your school psychologist. There was no school psychologist. By the time he was in high school, he was out of we had him in private school through eighth grade.
00;11;07;29 - 00;11;30;19
Ann
We switched him over to public school because he needed an IEP. And the private schools are not really all that keen on accommodations and doing all those things. So we switch them over to public school, which is, you know, that's where it started going downhill. Not blaming public school. That's not it at all. I think it was just the the switch in the environment for him was too much for his anxiety, that kind of thing.
00;11;30;25 - 00;11;55;21
Ann
But they did not have a school counselor who really did counseling. There was no school psychologist. So, you know, that was just a total waste of time. They were just shrugging their shoulders, like you say. And then you go to the the therapist and you're you know, we already had psychologists and psychiatrists because we'd had to do he he's ADHD and has anxiety and we'd known that for years.
00;11;55;21 - 00;12;13;25
Ann
And so we dealt with these people for years. And you go to these people and they just give you all the medications or run all the tests and tell you what's wrong and then give you more medication. If that doesn't work, you get more medication. And then at some point they just shrug their shoulders too. They're like, Well, go put him somewhere.
00;12;14;02 - 00;12;38;13
Ann
He needs more intensive care. Well, where do I put him? Well, we don't really know. We don't really have any referrals. We don't really do that. So, you know, you you just hit a wall at every turn and it's just I know there there was information, but, you know, when you're in the middle of it, what I was researching at that point was troubled child.
00;12;38;19 - 00;13;10;27
Ann
You know, my son's on drugs. You know what? You know, so you get all the residential treatment centers is all that comes up and you get all of the stuff from them. And I knew that that might be skewed information, but yet I really didn't know where else to get the information. So, you know, it is you you're just in the middle of it so much that I think your brain cannot you cannot rationally think about where to get the information that you need or I couldn't.
00;13;10;27 - 00;13;21;17
Ann
I was so desperate and my anxiety was so thick and it was so scary that I was just in a spiral myself. So I wasn't getting the right information from anyone.
00;13;21;19 - 00;13;49;09
Brenda
Right. And and I know that you have ADHD and anxiety and I'm and I see this in parents that I work with. And I'm just curious, how did that play into this whole thing? Because you're also having to navigate your own issues in your own way of consuming the world. Basically, and also at the same time trying to do this with your son.
00;13;49;09 - 00;13;51;17
Brenda
So maybe talk a little bit about what that was like.
00;13;51;21 - 00;14;15;00
Ann
Well, right. So he he had anxiety from the time I mean, he came out of the womb, literally. He was adopted at birth, at birth, and he was anxious. Looking back from the time we brought him home from the hospital, no lie. But by the time he was two and three, he was expressing it in a way that we could sort of understand that, okay, maybe this is anxiety.
00;14;15;03 - 00;14;35;10
Ann
So he has anxiety. He was diagnosed with ADHD by the time he was in second grade, and I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was when he was about two years old was when I finally got my diagnosis after going through college and law school with it with no, you know, medication. So. But anxiety? No. Yeah. Good to know now.
00;14;35;10 - 00;15;07;26
Ann
Thank you. And the anxiety had always been with me, too, since the time I was little. So he he could not have been more like me had I given birth to him. He was exactly like me. I knew exactly what he was feeling and what he was going through with the anxiety and the ADHD, but that knowing that still did not do me much good because I was so out of control with my own emotions, I could not I just could not control the anxiety.
00;15;07;29 - 00;15;37;01
Ann
I was on medication still am a medication was on medication for ADHD, but ADHD also makes you anxious. It also makes you easily frustrated. Your your emotions are just a mess. And so and then you pour more anxiety on top of it and then you pour his dysregulation, because from the time he was little on, he was we called it, he called it he was a fit pitcher.
00;15;37;01 - 00;15;56;13
Ann
I mean, he would pitch a fit about everything, you know, fall in the floor, pitch a fit, and it didn't. And as he got older and older and older, my husband would look at it. We would look at each other like, okay, surely he's not still going to be doing this when he's, you know, driving a car. Well, little did we know they just intensified.
00;15;56;15 - 00;16;29;24
Ann
That was his temperament, plus the ADHD plus the anxiety. So you have this child who's disregulated. And when he would get disregulated, it made me anxious. So then I wouldn't be able to control my anxiety. And instead of doing what in my head, you know, thinking rational brain would tell me to do, I would just react. And it was usually with, you know, I say usually it didn't get worse until he got worse.
00;16;29;24 - 00;16;37;04
Ann
And he got older when he was little. I was pretty patient with it, you know. But what I read was ignore the tantrums, tell them, go.
00;16;37;04 - 00;16;37;19
Brenda
To their room.
00;16;37;19 - 00;17;01;15
Ann
And when you're calm, come out. So I did all of that and pretty it was pretty. Okay. But as he hit high school and started hanging out with a new friend group because he and these other boys broke up with each other and that was all based in ADHD and anxiety because my son had a little fit and had a little fight and then it was all over between them.
00;17;01;18 - 00;17;27;08
Ann
So, you know, then he turns around and starts hanging out with this whole new group of friends. So his behavior started intensifying because he started doing different kinds of drugs. And, you know, we threw in not just weed now, which he'd been doing for at least a couple of years, but we threw in LSD and ecstasy and lean and Xanax and God knows what else.
00;17;27;10 - 00;17;56;06
Ann
So with that, we didn't know then, as his behavior intensified his, he started having these rages and started, you know, having just total meltdowns like when he was young. But the intensity was revved up 100%. It was like tantrums squared. Every door in our house was broken. The solid wood doors, he had punched holes or broken the doors completely apart.
00;17;56;09 - 00;18;28;16
Ann
We had holes in the walls. We had furniture thrown. And, you know, it was just insane. And at that point, we were like, okay, is it the ADHD? Is it the ADHD medication? Maybe. Is it the anxiety today? Is it the depression? Because by that point he'd been diagnosed with depression. Is or is it these drugs that he's on or is it that he's withdrawing from the drugs that we had no idea what the hell was going on and no one could tell us or no one tried to tell us?
00;18;28;22 - 00;18;49;06
Ann
And then, you know, my emotions just got worse and worse and I was more disregulated and I was so out of sorts that all I could do was think, I've got to fix this. I've got to fix this. What What are we going to do to fix him? He needs fixing. He is out of control. He's doing all these things that he shouldn't be doing.
00;18;49;06 - 00;19;13;05
Ann
He's going to die. He's going to die. He's going to die. And that's that was all I could think about. So it was lots of yelling and lots of punishing and trying to punish. It was lots of controlling behavior on my part. And my poor husband, who was just as calm as he can be and is patient as God.
00;19;13;07 - 00;19;37;15
Ann
And he kept telling me I was doing that wrong. So we were at each other's throats because I thought I was right and I thought, Tough love, this is what you do. And I had friends telling me, You've got to put the hammer down and you've got to do this and you've got to stop him. So I was just reeling and spinning in every direction and all that anxiety and all the ADHD.
00;19;37;15 - 00;20;03;11
Ann
If I had not had that, I don't know that it would have been all that different. But I, I think that I would have been able to maybe keep the house less chaotic. Maybe have a less chaotic atmosphere for him and maybe his anxiety maybe might not have been so off the rails, but it was definitely, you know, that all of that played into it so much.
00;20;03;11 - 00;20;20;25
Ann
The ADHD and the anxiety played into it so much that it just kind of confused things, You know, if we hadn't had that and it had just been, everything's fine up until boom, he started doing drugs or something, and then we would have kind of known, Well, it's the drugs, you know, this is what we're going to concentrate on.
00;20;20;27 - 00;20;30;26
Ann
But because of all the other stuff that cloud that, you know, clouded things, it was very hard to pinpoint. Well, what do we work on first or at all? You know?
00;20;30;28 - 00;20;31;12
Brenda
Right.
00;20;31;13 - 00;20;31;28
Ann
What's the.
00;20;31;28 - 00;20;57;20
Brenda
Thing? You know, you have so many layers to the onion. And I think that's where parents get really frozen is what do we attack first? You know, is it a mental health thing? Is it a some other diagnosis? Is it adoption? Is it the drugs? Is it you know, and now with the high potency THC, is it the, you know, impact of some of these substances?
00;20;57;20 - 00;21;23;29
Brenda
So, you know, having gone through it with my son, also ADHD and just watching all of the moving pieces and wondering and I, I think often when people, you know, maybe in the periphery of of our families, they hear, your child struggling with with with drugs. They just think about the drugs. They don't think about the ripple effect of the anger.
00;21;23;29 - 00;21;48;08
Brenda
And like you said, the holes punched in the wall, that is it's so common in in that just adds to, I think, the shame. And in us as parents like not wanting to talk about that because who wants to share that your kid is so angry that they're punching holes in the wall or they're throwing furniture? It's it's terrifying and it's embarrassing and you feel like you have failed.
00;21;48;10 - 00;21;48;27
Ann
Yes.
00;21;48;27 - 00;21;56;27
Brenda
Because if you had done something different, if you had done it right and your son wouldn't be doing these things, did you feel that way?
00;21;57;03 - 00;22;14;08
Ann
Lord. And yes. And one of the big things for us, when we took him out of the private school, we we'd heard all these stories. when you take him out of the school and, you know, the soon as he gets over here in ninth grade, no so-and-so took theirs out of school and put him in public school and all this stuff.
00;22;14;08 - 00;22;47;23
Ann
So unhappy, start smoking weed in the bathroom and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, there was this, you know, guilt and anxiety over did I do the wrong thing by moving schools? Did I? You know, how have us screwed this up? And so many things go through your head. And, you know, in retrospect, I did screw up. There were things I screwed up, but it was mainly in the way that I reacted to what he was doing and the way that I thought about the things that he was doing.
00;22;47;23 - 00;23;13;07
Ann
Because from from the angle I was coming from, my brother was a drug addict. I grew up with a drug addict. From the time I was probably around 14, he was younger than me. He started smoking marijuana and back then we called it pot. And then, you know, he graduated into cocaine and heroin probably within two or three years.
00;23;13;09 - 00;23;37;24
Ann
So I lived at home for these years and saw that firsthand. The arguments, the fights, the holes, the punching walls and all of that stuff. And then he continued on. He died a drug addict in his early fifties, just a few years ago, a meth addict. So I saw that for years, what that did to my parents and how they responded to it and how it tore our family apart.
00;23;37;24 - 00;24;08;22
Ann
I didn't speak to him for years. I couldn't stand the sight of him. And so when my son started smoking weed and it was beyond devastating for me, it was life altering in from my perspective. And that sure didn't help anything, because what that did then was I started doing all the controlling and I started thinking, No, he is not going to end up like my brother.
00;24;08;25 - 00;24;29;16
Ann
I am not going to have this, this is not going to happen. And and I was embarrassed and people, you know, I knew were talking about whatever he was doing out there and he'd never been this way before. He'd been a perfect child, you know, except for the tantrums at home. But it was everything all at once. But that the big thing for me was that realization.
00;24;29;16 - 00;24;53;13
Ann
And I didn't realize this at the time. I knew, you know, all the stuff about my about my brother probably played into it somehow, but it was, you know, several years later, it was after he was in residential treatment that it finally you know, occurred to me when I started reading about emotions that, my God, that's what really sent me over the edge, was the whole drug thing.
00;24;53;13 - 00;25;24;24
Ann
And me so desperately not wanting him to go down that same road and trying to make darn sure that he got fixed and that it didn't continue. And that's what just really threw us into that spiral of control and punishment and rebellion and fighting back and, you know, I think most of it or a lot of it could have been avoided had I known what I know now, you know, about how to communicate and how to regulate my emotions and all of this good stuff.
00;25;24;26 - 00;25;37;14
Brenda
Right. So you kind of had it sounds like you had a template for I know what this looks like. I see the train leaving the station. I need to make sure I derail this train.
00;25;37;20 - 00;25;51;00
Ann
yeah. I was ready to lay my body on the tracks and make it make sure didn't go anywhere.
00;25;51;03 - 00;26;14;08
Brenda
Hi. I'm taking a quick break to let you know some exciting news. There are now two private online communities for supporting you through this experience with your child or children. The Stream Community. For those who identify as moms and the woods. For guys who identify as dads, of course, this includes stepparents. Anyone who is caring for a young person who struggles with substance use and mental health.
00;26;14;11 - 00;26;44;05
Brenda
The stream and the words exist completely outside of all social media, so you never have to worry about confidentiality. And they're also ad free. So when you're there, you'll be able to focus on learning the latest evidence based approaches to helping people change their relationship with drugs and alcohol. In both communities, we have a positive focus without triggering content or conversations, and we hope you learn to be an active participant in helping your child move towards healthier choices.
00;26;44;08 - 00;27;03;29
Brenda
You'll also experience the relief of just being able to be real, connect with other parents who know fully what you're going through and have battle tested mentors alongside. You can check out both the stream and the woods for free before committing so there's no risk. Go to hope Stream Community, Talk to get all the details and become a member.
00;27;04;01 - 00;27;16;18
Brenda
Okay, let's get back to the show.
00;27;16;21 - 00;27;46;19
Brenda
How did you start learning that you needed to shift your behavior? And then I want to talk about you've done a really deep dive on adolescence and neurobiology and all of that. So I want to I want to dive into that. But I think a lot of our listeners are looking for some tools or some practices that they can try, because if they've been listening to Upstream very long, there's been a big spoiler alert that the yelling, screaming, shaming, blaming doesn't work.
00;27;46;19 - 00;27;58;09
Brenda
So just lay in that out there. And so then they're saying, okay, but then what do I do? So how did you start to make that shift? Like, what was the turning point for you?
00;27;58;11 - 00;28;29;13
Ann
Well, he went to residential treatment. We were in South Carolina. He was in California. We were doing our little, you know, Zoom or I guess then it was Skype, little family therapy sessions. And every time we would get on with the family therapist before they'd bring my son in the room, they the fellow would say, now and remember, you need to validate his emotions and you need to, you know, do this and do that and talk to him this way.
00;28;29;16 - 00;28;47;24
Ann
And I remember thinking, I am so confused right now. I don't I don't understand it. Finally, I think maybe the second time we had the call, I said, I just don't get it. I don't know what you're telling me to do. I don't understand. I would try it. I remember trying it the first time and I remember him just kind of shaking his head in the background.
00;28;48;02 - 00;29;10;07
Ann
So finally I'm like, What? I don't understand. And he said, okay, go read this book. Dan Segal and Tina Payne. Bryson No drama, discipline. And I'm okay. I'll go try. And so about this book online. And I started reading it. I thought, okay, wait a minute, this is for parents of toddlers. What what the heck does he think I'm that bad?
00;29;10;10 - 00;29;43;05
Ann
But I started reading and as I read like a few pages, I literally I'll never forget. I mean, I started bawling, crying. Yeah. The tears are falling on the pages and I'm like, my God. I mean, why did I not understand this? Why did no one tell me this before? You know, this validating their emotions and that they need to understand that they have a right to be angry or they have a right to feel this way and that, you know, we're not invalidating them and telling them, you know, just calm down.
00;29;43;05 - 00;30;08;06
Ann
And which that was my go to phrase calm down, calm down. It is not that big a deal. Calm. I mean, I can just I can hear myself saying it over and over again. So I started reading this book and I thought, my God. Okay, so what else Don't I know? And I just kind of went down the the path of you know, they referred to these books and they referred to this terminology.
00;30;08;06 - 00;30;45;17
Ann
And so I started buying these books, and then I started doing the deep dive into the, you know, all the the scientific studies. And and so, yeah, four or five years later here, I am. I know. I feel like I know way too much. But it, it was that first realization that I was looking at everything wrong. I was approaching it from his behavior, the outward behavior that needed to be stopped, the drugs, the pitch and the fit, the, you know, just the way he was always angry and this was always going on.
00;30;45;17 - 00;31;15;25
Ann
And I just wanted somebody to fix what was going on. But I didn't stop to think about what is it behind that? What is it that he's feeling that is causing him to act this way? And I you know, I never thought to dig back and try to figure that out. And that's what these books were saying, where they were like, well, there's always a reason, you know, there's a reason why this happens and there's a reason why he has anxiety.
00;31;15;25 - 00;31;40;03
Ann
There's a reason why he's doing these drugs. So that was a huge eye opening moment to me. And and another one was when we were at the treatment center visiting, there was a a group, a family meeting. And I remember somebody one of the people speaking said something about, you know, you guys are worried about and fussing and fighting with them about their bedroom being dirty, about their bedroom being messy.
00;31;40;05 - 00;32;11;14
Ann
And they are in pain. They are in pain. It is deeper than that, you know? And I thought, my God, I felt so guilty, first of all, because I still was talking to him about, you know, get your bedroom cleaned up and do this and do that. And it it didn't occur to me that I was worried about such superficial, unimportant things when my son had been diagnosed with major depression and anxiety and substance use disorder.
00;32;11;16 - 00;32;39;16
Ann
And, you know, it's just I think getting that mindset shift and kind of flipping things around and it just it it got better from then from then on because that was let's see, I think I learned this about a month or two months before he turned 18. He was in residential treatment for two months. He we picked him up, picked him up like a maybe a week before he turned 18.
00;32;39;19 - 00;32;59;00
Ann
And, you know, I felt like I was on a ticking clock here. You know, there was only so much time that I had left to figure this out. So by that time that I picked him up, I had read the book, this first book I had already read maybe a couple of other books and started doing a deeper dive into adolescent neurobiology and this kind of thing.
00;32;59;02 - 00;33;17;07
Ann
And so I sort of had an idea in my head of how to talk to him now and how to communicate with him. But I was just picking him up and this was all fresh and new, and he was still like just sort of zoned out from all the medication they had him on at the residential treatment center, which that's a whole other story.
00;33;17;10 - 00;33;45;02
Ann
But within weeks, maybe a month, I had finally started learning what to say in the moment when he was angry and it had started to sink in with him, that I was changing, that I was making an effort to change and that things were going to be different. And because at first when you try these things and now I tell people, just tell them you are going to try something new and that you want a do over.
00;33;45;08 - 00;34;07;01
Ann
But at the time, you know, I didn't think about that. But it takes them a while to realize that you're not going to react to them the same way that you always have. You know that the same things aren't coming out of your mouth. They're still reacting as if they are. And and with me, I literally had to stop myself and think, okay, what am I supposed to say?
00;34;07;07 - 00;34;24;27
Ann
What am I? Okay, validate Valcke. What does that mean right now? What? What do I need to say? It was not second nature for me. It was very difficult. And it was I had done a lot of work just in the couple of months of thinking about my emotions and becoming more aware of my emotions and trying mindfulness.
00;34;24;29 - 00;34;47;15
Ann
But it was all, you know, so fast that it was still very difficult. And and I'll even say, I mean, he's here visiting right now and 30 minutes we got on. I was getting nervous because he had a friend over here and they were eating French fries and they had the game on and and my husband's gone and the dog and I'm like, my subparts, you know, I get nervous, like when I have to do stuff.
00;34;47;15 - 00;35;09;22
Ann
So you guys are going to have to get out of here. And, you know, I could feel that, okay, I'm not really approaching this. Right. Okay. Need to calm down. Yes, it's still not easy, but he's changed so much over the last two or three years that he's able to actually see when I'm nervous and he's like, okay, mom, calm down.
00;35;09;25 - 00;35;37;09
Ann
I got this. You know, he doesn't know. Don't say calm down. But so it's still hard. It's not easy. When you've been this way for 50 years, you just turn around and change it in an instant. But anyway, that's that's how we started was just little by little. And within a couple of months, I would say his whole demeanor had changed.
00;35;37;09 - 00;35;57;19
Ann
I mean, residential treatment obviously helped, but his whole demeanor had started to change after he got home. And and actually, I'll throw this in there. We did not take him back to South Carolina, to our home where everything had happened and everything was hell. You know, they suggested therapeutic boarding school. He was, you know, about to graduate from high school.
00;35;57;19 - 00;36;20;20
Ann
So that was really not even an option. The only other place I could think to come to was my mother's house in Alabama. So we just picked up and brought him to Alabama straight from California, and that pissed him off. He wasn't real happy about that. But again, you know, we started doing the things that we knew we needed to do, and within a couple of months, things were so much better.
00;36;20;20 - 00;36;43;24
Ann
Everything was calmer. And, you know, he was he when he first got home, he was still having little fits. But I was learning to address it differently. And I mean, it was pretty miraculous, but things just got better and better and better. He did go off to snowboarding school right before the pandemic hit, but then the pandemic hit and he had to come back.
00;36;43;26 - 00;37;00;26
Ann
So I kind of feel lucky that we got another year or so with him to practice all these things and, you know, he's living happily on his own now at 22 out in Colorado. And he's a pro snowboarder like he said he was going to be. So, you know.
00;37;00;29 - 00;37;38;01
Brenda
I amazing, amazing. And I think what what that demonstrates what you just talked about is you having the humility right to step back and say, I need to do some changes in myself. I need to make changes about myself. And also having an awareness of yourself that that self-awareness that allows you to notice when you're getting triggered or when you're getting anxious and finding ways to counteract that so that you can respond in the right way.
00;37;38;01 - 00;37;59;22
Brenda
Because, like you said, it doesn't come naturally first. And I love that you talked about how it took time after time after time, because when you start responding differently, your kids look at you like, where's my mom? Exactly. Because because my mom usually yells or tells me to calm down or whatever it is. So it's a little weird at first.
00;37;59;22 - 00;38;01;09
Brenda
And are suspicious.
00;38;01;09 - 00;38;02;21
Ann
Exactly.
00;38;02;23 - 00;38;20;03
Brenda
Yeah. So you have to keep that. You have to keep at it. And I also love what you said, and I was the same. I didn't think about the fact that I didn't have to have all the answers. I thought I did have to have all the answers. And it had it never occurred to me to say, hey, I'm trying something different.
00;38;20;09 - 00;38;43;11
Brenda
Bear with me. What I was doing wasn't working, so I'm trying something new. That never occurred to me to say that either. And I think it's so freeing as a parent to just be like, I don't know, I'm just going to try this. I'm going to try relating to you in a different way. And it sounds like it, you know, it was rocky at first, but then it really started to smooth out for you guys.
00;38;43;13 - 00;39;05;05
Ann
It really did. And I think it is so important. And again, this is what I do tell parents is you know, let your kid know. Look, I've been wrong. I just realized that I've been wrong, that this was not the way that I needed to react to this. I did not have control of my emotions. This is what I've learned and this is how I'm going to start trying to do it.
00;39;05;11 - 00;39;36;13
Ann
And I also tell them to explain to your kid, This is what I've learned about your brain. You know, this is how your brain works. Because if I had known some of those things back then, I would not have been quite as confused as I was, you know, not understanding that just normally teenagers will act a certain way even if there are no drugs involved, even if they're, you know, nothing else is going on.
00;39;36;16 - 00;39;59;26
Ann
They're going to be irrational. You know, I remember my husband, I look at each other and going, that is so irrational. Why would he say that? Why would he do that? That is the most irrational thing I've ever heard in my life. Well, we didn't know that that irrationality is kind of part of adolescence. You know, his was a little much a little more irrational, but still.
00;40;00;01 - 00;40;43;18
Ann
Yeah. So, yeah, I tell parents all the time, just be honest and tell them, look, I just figured this out because I'll have people tell me, you know, I didn't know these things. You know, they just start listening to a podcast like yours or mine or, you know, read a book and they just need to tell their kid, I am going to do my best to be different and to react different and here's what I hope happens and here's how your brain works and here's why I think maybe you're reacting, you know, in these ways, you can't help how your brain works because kids not knowing that it has to be confusing.
00;40;43;24 - 00;41;14;02
Ann
I mean, I can remember being confused. I was always anxious and I had depression, too, and didn't even know what that was. That weird feeling that I had. I didn't know what that was until years later. So having that information is, I think, very valuable for the adolescent to know. Okay, this is why I get so angry really fast, or this is why I really don't think about something when I want to go do it, I just do it.
00;41;14;02 - 00;41;20;11
Ann
You know? I just think it's very validating for them and empowering that they have that information.
00;41;20;13 - 00;41;55;04
Brenda
Yeah. Let's talk about some of a couple of the things that you learned in particular about the adolescent brain, about puberty. What are some of the things that you've learned that and I love the fact that you have this insight as a parent who's been through the experience, because I think we can look for different things, right? If you have an adolescent who's kind of on the normal rocky adolescent path, it's different than if you have an adolescent who's on the extremely rocky substance use, ADHD, anxiety, depression path.
00;41;55;07 - 00;42;02;23
Brenda
What are some of things that you learned that were most helpful to you about the brain in particular in retrospect?
00;42;02;23 - 00;42;24;28
Ann
You know, at the point that I learned all of this stuff, it was it was a little too late, but it helped me at least put the past in perspective. But, you know, the thing that I see a lot of parents don't and I'm in a lot of, you know, parenting groups on Facebook and I see all these comments and they're like, my kid is so mean and so angry.
00;42;24;28 - 00;42;55;03
Ann
All the time and, you know, so self centered and only concerned about themselves. They don't care about me. I broke my foot and they don't even open the door for me. I do for them. And they don't even say thank you and I want to go, my God. But you don't understand. That's how they're made. So understanding that when they reach puberty, the one and only thing important to them is being accepted by their peers.
00;42;55;03 - 00;43;19;23
Ann
So that's it. They don't care about us at this point. They do in the background, but they're it's a life or death situation that they be accepted by a tribe, their tribe. And the that is an evolutionary thing, if you think about it, you know, eons ago, if someone was left out in the cold and not accepted by a tribe, they died.
00;43;19;28 - 00;43;40;26
Ann
They died of hunger, they got eaten by an animal, whatever it was. So it is evolutionary. It is in our brain at this age when because of all the and I won't go into all the details, but the way the brain works and it starts changing at puberty, then that is when that that push for I got to be accepted.
00;43;40;26 - 00;44;04;05
Ann
I've got and it's the only thing that's important there looks what they wear, how they, you know, act around people. All of that is intensified at about 13 or 14. And so parents this they automatically think, my God, they're so self-centered. All they care about is doing what they want to do. They don't care about us anymore.
00;44;04;07 - 00;44;25;22
Ann
Well, they are no longer physically attached to you that that whole attachment theory, you know, they are attached, but they are they need to be emotional attached still to us, but they do not need that physical attachment anymore. So that's a big that was a big revelation for me. I was like, okay, that's why all this happens.
00;44;25;25 - 00;44;53;17
Ann
And then they also the limbic system in their brain, the amygdala is super hypersensitive during adolescence. So everything is a threat. They go into fight or flight mode over the least little thing because their amygdala thinks everything's a snake or a bear or a tiger about to attack them. Even our voice, the mother's voice, has been shown to be that to make that amygdala trigger.
00;44;53;23 - 00;45;28;12
Ann
And so we can go in in the morning to say, What would you like for breakfast, honey? A muffin or a bagel? And that is because everything that we do irritates them and upsets them. So learning that, knowing that they're that's why their emotions are the way they are, understanding that. That's why they react that way. And the thing that I learned, too, is the more their amygdala is activated that way, the more they are triggered, the the more their amygdala gets used to that and remembers that thing and the more it happens again.
00;45;28;12 - 00;45;53;15
Ann
And that's how anxiety comes about. That's how an anxiety disorder builds roughly. So, you know, my son, because he was already, you know, anxious from birth. And then all this starts happening in your brain at puberty, you know, it just makes it more reactive. And so it's even more, you know, easy for them to develop that anxiety disorder.
00;45;53;19 - 00;46;14;00
Ann
His just intensified. It just got worse and worse and worse. But the other thing that we don't realize that happens is their reward system becomes, you know, amped up like crazy and everything's more pleasurable, everything is more motivational, and it just gets reinforced. And the whole time these things are happening, you know, they're trying drugs and, that's fun.
00;46;14;00 - 00;46;37;26
Ann
And I got to do it again. Their prefrontal cortex is still developing and they the synapses between their neurons are strengthening for all the things that they're doing on a regular basis. So the more that they're doing smoking weed, the more that they're trying these additional drugs, the more wired their brain becomes. For that thing. And the reward system is saying, do it again, do it again, do it again.
00;46;37;26 - 00;47;03;29
Ann
So they're doing it again and their brain is just becoming wired for doing that drug or doing that risky activity. And it's even been shown scientifically that when they're around their peers, that that acceptance from peers is like it activates the reward system in the same way that drugs and alcohol do. So they are more willing to do the risky things in front of them with their peers.
00;47;03;29 - 00;47;30;09
Ann
It's not so much that it's peer pressure, although there is some of that, but it's not all that it is their brain pressuring them to do the thing and then keep doing the thing. And that's why it's so easy for adolescents to become addicted because their synapses get wired for doing that thing very easily. And then, you know, it's it's out of control before you know it, but just learning all of these things.
00;47;30;16 - 00;47;53;22
Ann
So you have a high behind the behavior that you're seeing that you don't think that your kid is the one, the only one who's acting this way and that everyone else is going through the same thing. You know, that is powerful just in and of itself that you don't think, God, what is wrong with my kid? Why is she acting this way?
00;47;53;22 - 00;48;17;04
Ann
Why she act in this way? Well, guess what? They're all acting that way. And you would think that by now we'd all know that after centuries of this going on. But somehow I think we think we're the only ones that have, you know, that has a kid that's acting this way. And, you know, we start reacting, you know, in that fashion that we think, well, you're the only one doing this.
00;48;17;04 - 00;48;44;19
Ann
You're the only one that's bad. And so here comes the punishment. But yeah, learning about the brain, I would say, is one of the most important things that parents need to do before their kid hits like ten or 12. Every parent needs to understand what's around the corner so they can respond to it in the right way, not respond to it, not respond to it where you think, they're just being, you know, self-centered and cruel and mean.
00;48;44;26 - 00;49;01;03
Ann
They can't help it. We have to help them learn how to control these things and learn how to respond to how their brain is is making them act. And it just doesn't come natural to them.
00;49;01;06 - 00;49;35;28
Brenda
No. And I think the there's so much on parents right now in particular about social media. Parents are worried about the impact of COVID. Like, there's so many things that parents are trying to navigate at that age of 12, 13, 14 that to sit down and really study some basic psychology and to really just learn about the brain almost seems like whatever, I'll get to that once I once I figure out how to keep my daughter from being stalked online.
00;49;36;02 - 00;49;36;19
Ann
Yes.
00;49;36;21 - 00;50;06;02
Brenda
There's just so much going on, and I truly wish that there was in like sixth, seventh grade a mandatory course for parents and for kids to understand this so that the kids don't feel, why am I doing this? I'm, you know, I'm doing these crazy things. My parents are getting mad. There's so much conflict in my home. It's just it's a lot for them to have to try and process.
00;50;06;05 - 00;50;23;07
Brenda
I wonder, do you and your son now have I know you're you're in a better place as a as a me with mine. Do you have conversations like are there is there hindsight that you've gained now through conversations with him that you think would be valuable for listeners to hear?
00;50;23;14 - 00;50;40;16
Ann
Well, I think it's so funny because, you know, I think he has a kind of a block at this point. He's 22 and so I think he has kind of a block for some of the things that happened because I tried to ask him the other night about school refusal. I was going to be talking to somebody about school, refuse.
00;50;40;16 - 00;51;05;20
Ann
And he's like, I didn't do that. When did I do that? I said, yes, you did. And with me, I mean, I just I feel so good at this point. And that's one reason I want parents to hear that things can get better, because I remember being in that spot, being in that position and thinking, my God, I mean, I get goosebumps just sitting here thinking about it.
00;51;05;22 - 00;51;40;08
Ann
I just thought it was never going to get better. There was no hope. I didn't see a future for him. I didn't see a future where we would have a good relationship and it was terrifying. So, you know, just looking back, it's hard to believe where we were just, you know, about five years ago, five, six years ago, that we were in the middle of that, because now, I mean, he he'll walk in the room and hug me or he's silly with me or come you know, we played he tried to teach me about playing GTA the night is What is that?
00;51;40;11 - 00;52;00;19
Ann
That's the Grand Theft Auto. Grand Theft Auto? Yeah, I could think of. I think so. You know, I sat there was to play Grand Theft Auto and, you know, he played a song for me that. That I was like, let's listen to this. It's it's just unbelievable that we can be in this space and share the space together and not be at each other's throats.
00;52;00;25 - 00;52;27;17
Ann
And me not having to worry about him, you know, doing some crazy drug or doing something crazy. I mean, it is, you know, my hindsight is what I teach other parents now. It's I acted inappropriately. I responded inappropriately. I did not have control over my emotions. I did not know about the adolescent brain. I did not know how to discipline without it backfiring.
00;52;27;19 - 00;52;50;11
Ann
So I have all, you know, tons of hindsight. But the thing that just just makes me so happy and just brings me joy every day is to see the smile on his face all the time and that he's not always frowning. I mean, there wasn't a day that he wasn't angry or frowning or looking at me like he hated me.
00;52;50;13 - 00;53;13;26
Ann
And he has a he's been here a week or two, I think now or over a week. I haven't seen him frown, like literally not one time. I mean he could score May meals and he, he works out and he, you know, eats right and he drinks tons of water and I mean, it's just mind boggling that that's where we are.
00;53;13;28 - 00;53;41;19
Ann
So that's the big thing. I want people, you know, and as your your podcast is so aptly named, I want people to have hope because there is hope it can change. Don't throw up your hands, you know, and just say, I don't know what else to do. Be a seeker, be a learner and be patient and have that love in your and I swear things can change.
00;53;41;22 - 00;53;44;01
Ann
Living proof right here.
00;53;44;04 - 00;54;11;08
Brenda
Yes, absolutely. And it can take time. Think that's the that's the back half of that is have hope know that it can change absolutely can change and it might take some time and so yes be a seeker of information I know and I'm going to put a link to your website in the show notes with you have tons of great downloads and resources on your website that I want to make sure people have access to, because you just never know.
00;54;11;08 - 00;54;33;05
Brenda
You might think, okay, I know all that. I know all that I know. I need to be empathetic. I know I needed a jaded editor. Yeah, but you know what? You might find that one thing that just shifts something in your mind or in your heart that will make a difference. And I think you can never. I mean, to this day, I'm sure you're saying I keep learning new stuff and I'm like, Whoa, I never knew that.
00;54;33;05 - 00;54;59;22
Brenda
That's amazing. Yep. So continue to seek that out and and to make sure you've got people around you who can help you through that. I wonder if you zoom out in, if I could give you a billboard along the busiest street where you live, where the most cars go by every day, what would your billboards say?
00;54;59;24 - 00;55;29;26
Ann
That's such a good question. I tell you, the biggest thing I wish maybe someone had told me this a few years ago was that respect is a two way street. That you have to give respect to get respect and that your child wants to be just treated with the same respect that you treat any other adult on the street.
00;55;29;28 - 00;55;42;09
Ann
And I think that's a big one. I think that's something that we forget. So that's what I would probably want people to know, is that, yes, respect is a two way street. You got to give it to get it.
00;55;42;11 - 00;56;10;01
Brenda
I love that even if your child seems to be extremely off the rails in doing crazy things, giving that respect can make a world of difference. I'm with you on that one. Definitely seeing that. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing your information and your story. I just can't get enough of these insights that I think help parents as they're going through their day even today.
00;56;10;01 - 00;56;25;22
Brenda
Right. Somebody might be listening to this in the morning and they they walk into the kitchen and there's their beautiful, challenging child that that might just hearing this might shift how they have that interaction. So thank you for being generous and giving us all this time.
00;56;25;22 - 00;56;29;20
Ann
I hope that's the case. Thank you. I appreciate you letting me be here.
00;56;29;23 - 00;56;55;05
Brenda
Of course. Thank you. Okay, my friend, that is it for today. Remember, you can find all the guest information and resources we talked about in the show notes. And those are at Brenda Zane dot com forward slash podcast. We also have some playlists there that we created for you, like the top ten episodes, coaching episodes, recovery stories, all the good stuff and you haven't already.
00;56;55;07 - 00;57;19;25
Brenda
You may want to download a free e-book I wrote called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your child might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through the rough times. You can download that free from Brenda's income for again INSIGHT.
Brenda
Thank you so much for listening. Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.