Mother & Son Walk Us Through Addiction, Recovery and Rebuilding Family Connection, With Cindy & Colin
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Cindy Yoder-Brown, Colin Brown
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About this episode:
By the time Cindy learned to establish boundaries with her son Colin, he had already endured brain injuries and intubations due to his alcohol abuse. When Colin finally called her from jail one night, she knew she shouldn’t bail him out despite her instincts. She expressed sympathy but didn't offer to rescue him - again. Since that day, Cindy and Colin have both experienced profound personal growth. Colin is now a fitness enthusiast serving as director of personal training at a gym. Cindy is an advisor in The Stream Community and a personal coach to several moms. Their story gives hope that change can and does happen – and that’s what Hopestream is all about.
Episode resources:
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00;00;00;12
Cindy
Oh, in the first few years, five years, I was on the computer researching, talking to every expert, getting bad advice from so many people, and just trying to work it all out to save him. And I had to come to the realization that I'm most likely not going to be the savior. And I've got to sit here in this pain and accept what's going on before I can move forward and have an opportunity to even try to make a connection with him.
00;00;35;15
Brenda
You're listening to Hope Stream. The place for those parenting teens and young adults who are misusing drugs and alcohol in a treatment program or working their way toward recovery. It's your private space to learn and to gain encouragement and understanding for me, your host, Brenda Zane, and fellow parent to a child who struggled. And I'm so glad you're here.
To learn more about all the resources available to you besides a podcast, please head over to Hope Stream Community, dawg. Every once in a while someone reaches out with a really great suggestion for a podcast episode. Today you're going to hear the result of one of those suggestions. It's a conversation with a mother son team, which when I look back, I realize I have never done cancer surprising.
And this team is especially close to my heart because the mom you're going to hear from Cindy Yoder. Brown is an adviser in the stream community. She is a much loved coach to several of our moms. And she is just the brightest light to be around. When Cindy and I talked about having this conversation, I asked if she thought her son Colin would be up for joining us.
And lucky for you, he was. Which made it all that more impactful. It's really important to me to bring you real conversations that hold up to the pressure test that you are under. The parenting a child who struggles with substance use or is on their way to recovery. But it's also imperative that my guests inspire you and provide hope that change can and does happen.
00;02;09;19
Brenda
Today's episode is all of that. It's a priceless examination of the complicated relationship structures that get erected in a family when a child is living in addiction. You're also going to hear what it takes on behalf of both parent and child to dismantle beliefs and behaviors that can keep everybody unhealthy. I cannot think Cindy and Colin enough for taking time to share this with us.
I know you want to dive in. So here we go. Enjoy.
Welcome, Cindy and Colin to Hope Stream. We've been talking about doing this for a while, and I was I was telling Colin right before we were recording that I've never had a a parent child relationship combo on the podcast. So this is really exciting. So thanks for being willing and joining me.
00;03;02;25
Cindy
Were here.
00;03;03;07
Brenda
First.
00;03;04;05
Cindy
Yes, you are. Hey. Hey.
00;03;07;21
Colin
Thanks for having us. And hopefully we don't disappoint.
00;03;11;08
Brenda
I can tell you just the fact that you're both here after, you know, struggling and obviously, if you're on Hope Stream, you've been through some stuff. And just the fact that you're here will tell people a lot that things can change. Relationships can heal. We can heal. So I would love it if you would just do a quick introduction of yourself in current day so people can kind of just get an idea like, Who are you?
What do you do? Where do you live? Whatever you want to talk about, just to sort of ground us in where we are today. And then we're going to get in a time machine and we're going to do a little bit of backwards travel. But Colin, why don't you start and just let us know what's up with you today?
00;03;49;13
Colin
So I currently am the director of personal training at a gym Athletic Health and Wellness in Naples, Florida. I still live in assisted housing through a drug and alcohol recovery program. I am working on transitioning out of that, looking to buy a house soon. But for this time period and in my mindset, I've been making up for lost time know, grinding and working as hard as I can with my current job and future business ventures.
Finding the balance between being an over worker. Because I have to put my addictive tendencies into something and then finding the balance of rebuilding the relationships that I put on the way back burner for a long time is a bit challenging, but I find a way to make time to see my parents whenever I can. I have a girlfriend that lives in Sarasota.
She just actually two day passed her final nursing exam for her class. She off to take the board exam. So good things going on on that front. She's moving down to Naples. I am an avid fitness junkie. I shoot on the weekends. I'm training for a combined workout and marksman shooting competition, also a powerlifting competition. I think that summarizes me.
00;05;13;12
Brenda
That's a lot. That's a lot. Wow. Sounds like a very active, healthy lifestyle that you have.
00;05;21;04
Colin
Yes, I do my best, but I'm still working on balancing the sleep that is something I've pushed to the side in order to get everything else done. But, you know, in the grand scheme of things, I could be doing a lot worse things for my health.
00;05;35;28
Brenda
Yeah, it sounds like it. Thank you. That's a great it's a great grounding. And what about you, Mama? Cindy?
00;05;43;05
Cindy
We just recently, my husband and I moved to Naples, Florida, from Sonoma, California, because both of our sons ended up here by the grace of God, call and found Justin's place, which is from St Matthew's house here in in Naples, which is they serve the addicted and the hungry and the homeless and Colin ended up there and did a year long treatment.
And so we were bouncing back and forth a lot and we had a condo down here anyways because my parents would winter here. They're from Indiana. And so when Colin's brother found his way here too, we were like, Oh my goodness, we have to move. So we've been, you know, kind of living the snowbird life here for a few months, which is interesting and a lot of fun.
But what's just really, really cool is that I get to serve in the place where Colin's life was saved and redeemed, and I am just a part of this wonderful community there of parents and staff and and I get to be with my kids and live live life with them in a community where we grab each other for coffee.
And if you would have told me this would be happening three years ago, that my family's all living in one community and that we're enjoying our life in a community together as adults, I never would have believed it is just such a gift, such a gift, and to see that face, you know, my my big boy's face, you know, at least a few times a week is just amazing.
00;07;21;17
Brenda
Amazing, amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And I've known you Cindy, for a couple of years. We sort of bumped into each other in sort of in the stream community and serving parents in that way. And so that that's been great.
00;07;35;25
Cindy
And the partnership. Brenda That's I think where we first yeah, I coach for the Partnership to end Addiction and for Hope Stream and that's where I learn craft is at the partnership from you. You know we were in one of your groups too.
00;07;50;15
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's funny. It's like our our worlds have sort of intersected for a while. And so when we talked about doing this podcast episode, I was really excited because I think it's it's one thing to talk about these tools and craft and relationships and healing and doing your own work, and then it's another to actually hear it from people who have done the work and you both have done the work.
And so that's what I would love to dive into a little bit. So as much as you kind of want to go into it, Colin, why don't you tell us a little bit of your history so that we have context for where you've come from? And then I want to talk about how the relationship has, you know, because obviously relationships go through a lot when when young people are using substances, how that has changed and what some of those key tools were that you use, Cindy, to to keep the relationship and repair the relationship.
So, Colin, if you want to just take us through whatever you're comfortable with.
00;08;49;15
Colin
I started drinking and I believe 1314 immediately was drinking to get drunk. I like the feeling looking back on it now, it was definitely in an abnormal manner and it was to escape things. At the time I wasn't aware of that. Were giving me anxiety, depression and just making me feel different and left out. So I've always been an overture and literally everything.
So growing up, that was sports and then more and more as I got older, drugs and alcohol, and the more I got into the drugs and alcohol side of things, I used my God given athletic abilities to further what I really wanted at the time, which was to basically black out as much as I could to not think about all these things that were giving me trouble.
I'm adopted. So that was a big basis of why I had these feelings that I felt I had to run from. I remember having anxiety attacks and just thinking about things that I probably shouldn't have been thinking about when I was seven years old. I always had like an impending sense of doom and just things were not right.
But when you have nothing to compare it to, that is your norm in your reality. So as I got older, those abnormal feelings that just kept me kind of isolated from everyone around me. I turned to drugs and alcohol more and more to make it seem okay that I was not okay just with everything that was going on.
00;10;34;20
Colin
When I was in high school my junior year, I transferred to a school in Florida where I felt free from any sense of rules. And then things started to get worse and worse in terms of a the relationship ship that I had with my parents, if you could call it any at that point, it'd be just my own physical and mental well-being.
But because I had ability throw a baseball card and hit a baseball hard, I got away with it and was given way too many chances, which is kind of rinse and repeat the story for the next seven years. After that, alcohol, wheat and Adderall were my drugs of choice for most of my life. But I went all over the board.
I wasn't specific. It was just to get away from being conscious.
00;11;26;16
Brenda
You mentioned your relationship with your family didn't sound great when and maybe Cindy, you want to answer this sort of when did you become aware that, oh, things are not on track with calling?
00;11;41;10
Cindy
When we became the most concerned, like when we knew something is really up and was probably his end of his sophomore year, beginning of his junior year in high school when he was just isolating, not doing basic things like his summer Spanish homework, which is a running joke. My husband used to sleep on the floor calling I don't know if you remember this or knew it, but he'd sleep on the floor of Colin's room, afraid that Colin would take his life.
And not like knowing why he had that fear. Just sensing that things were really not great. And when Colin went off to IMG or, you know, the baseball academy that he went to in Florida, that was our it was the first time that Colin really said to us, this is I want this, this is what I want. And we thought it was about the baseball, but really what it was was about getting away from us, you know, and getting away from his situation.
He wanted to be free. That's all we ever talked about at that time. And so we allowed him that was really the biggest mistake we made in our parenting, was helping and facilitating him going to this baseball academy where there was just no parental supervision. Right. We were we'd fly back and forth and take him to a hotel to stay with us and Terry and I were raising one child, California, one in Florida, just to try to have a handle on it and try to control things.
And frankly, from the craft standpoint, I didn't find craft until Colin was in recovery, you know, real recovery he'd been through. I mean, he had all kinds of terrible things happen Intubations brain injuries. We got a call from the Boston Children's Hospital one one night telling us that, oh, my goodness, your child's not going to make it through the night.
00;13;37;27
Cindy
You know, those kinds of calls that you're familiar with. But the way we dealt with it, my husband and I, we were always on the same page, really a good tight team. But we we went towards that. You know, we got a problem here. We got to control this, you know, phase for quite a few years, right. Colin And that just made things worse.
But I felt so fortunate to stumble upon self-compassion work and we also had Christian ness, right? And so that was really helpful because that's when I realized that, wait, this, this might have to do with me. I can't have compassion for him until I have compassion for myself, you know? And then to couple that with the boundaries, I started feeling this.
These two working together, show the example for your your child. You know, that those two together can be. I always felt like the thing that could help our family. And I didn't exactly know how until I really learned the tools of craft, which was amazing to fit those together. I certainly was in the rooms of Al-Anon for a long time, but that didn't really quite feel right.
It didn't really quite work for me, although we did have a lot of times where we we went from control trying to controls behavior to then, okay, we got to cut them off right calling. And I'm sorry you can't come home or you're not allowed in the house. Then all those things that you know, I learned and getting some bad advice, I think, for us.
00;15;14;21
Cindy
But at one point or another call and I'm trying to remember what year it was, we realized we've got to work on this adoption thing. We've got to really work on this. And I had already been first. I'm a retired licensed clinical social worker and attachment theory and all of that. And we found a really great helper who in Boston where we went and saw this therapist, and that was the first time I felt there was a real shift in calling that maybe, just maybe, we could get back into a really solid relationship if we work on it.
And that that was the key. What is his name? Who does that famous Ted talk? Johann Hari.
00;15;52;10
Brenda
Yes.
00;15;53;07
Cindy
The opposite opposite of addiction is connection. And I thought if we can just become a family again, somehow this is going to work its way out. And I felt, God really, you know, pulling me in that direction. And so that's the way we went.
00;16;08;26
Brenda
Yeah. It's interesting that you and obviously with your background as a therapist and in some of that knowledge that you almost started sort of putting together the pieces of craft on your own before you found it with the self-compassion, with boundaries. And I would love to get into this dynamic with the two of you, especially the dynamic between the letting go verses kicking out, if you know what I mean, the difference and how to have boundaries that keep you safe as a parent and keep your emotions safe and keep you from like what we call getting in the back pocket.
So boundaries that keep the distance, but at the same time keeping the relationship because that is the key. It is so tricky, I think, you know, for people to sort of wrap their heads around like, well, I know I'm not supposed to help them and enable them to use more. So then I have to kind of put up a wall.
But if I do that, then I might. Am I putting up a barrier between us? And so I love to get from your perspective, Collin, how did that feel as your parents were trying to work through this sort of like maze of keeping you safe and healthy and connected, but not allowing you to continue using? You know what I mean?
Like, it's such a hard thing to do.
00;17;32;09
Colin
Well, it is a hard thing to do. And my advice might not apply to everybody. But looking back onto what I remember from those times, I'll be hazy regardless of if they were pushing me or pulling you away. I didn't really sense either of those because I was so caught up in what I wanted and what I was trying to achieve that I would just try to find a way to work whatever mode they were in to my advantage.
And that's where it wasn't really a relationship. It is what could I get out of it? And that's where it's tough because whenever someone's emotional, it's easier to shift their direction mode of actions if you know how to. And when you're in an addiction state, you may not be conscious of it, but you are fantastic at finding those weak points, those little strings to unravel, to get towards what you want.
Because I remember back there was a specific conversation I had with my mother. I was sitting in the living room and I don't remember exactly what it was, but she was trying to speak some sense into me and I intentionally made her feel crazy. I mean, we both probably were not acting super rational, but in the sense of what was going on, I was probably the less rational one, but I was way better at manipulating the situation.
So in my mind, I came out on top when the reality of it was we were just both hitting our heads against the opposite sides of walls with no real conclusion or benefit towards either. Her middle ground is always the better place to be, and it is very hard to do. But it's the only way to see the situation for what it is and to remove your own emotions from what is happening to be as logical as possible to get to the best outcome.
00;19;25;04
Colin
And I know that especially for a mother, that is like going against every maternal instinct when you know, a son or daughter is saying, you know, the one thing that they don't want to hear or exactly what they do want to hear and, you know, getting them on that emotional roller coaster opens up the door to get back to what I want.
I don't think there is an exact best route to go about any of it besides doing your best to look at it from a third person perspective. And what is the advice that you give? You know, a friend that is having a similar situation and I don't think it would be on either extreme ends of things, you know, completely Enabling it from a third person perspective does not seem like a good idea.
Completely kicking them out. Not the best idea either. Whatever that middle ground is, where there's firm boundaries with love. And that will look different in every situation. And that takes time to get to where in the patience, in the forethought to think out, what's the end goal here? You know, even if it is, you know, as a mother or a father, I have to dig deep into my own trauma and BS to get on top of that.
So I can't allow my son or daughter to use that against me because I know they will try to wiggle their way out of these situations. It's hard to do. It's almost impossible if you have an unwilling son or daughter. So just removing yourself as much as possible to for the long term gain of success down the road.
00;20;56;19
Brenda
Right. Did you have a sense yourself? Because I think this is a question that we as parents always have is do they know what they're numbing out? Like, did you know why you were wanting to just blackout? Because I think that's a big mystery that parents look at sometimes. I want to get into a couple of other things that you said, but was there a sense that you understood what it was even that you were doing?
00;21;22;17
Colin
Not on like a deeper level, Like I understand today because I've done extensive digging into my own inner workings. Two things popped in my head when you said that. One is I created like an alter ego to get away from the feelings that I had because I didn't know that they weren't normal. I knew I just wanted to get away from it.
But having like an impending sense of doom and like, I remember sitting in the dark in my bed at three in the morning and having like, this is while not on drugs and alcohol, hallucinations of monsters coming to get me, you know, you're not thinking about, Oh, maybe this is because I'm adopted when you're eight years old and you're also thinking about the existence of God and like, what does the afterlife mean?
That none of that's relevant. It's just, Wow, these feelings suck. How do I not feel this? So drugs and alcohol became that source of comfort, But then in order to make it more okay within my own head, I for a while developed like an alter ego of myself that was like the stereotypical jock partier. And that is who I embody for a long time, kind of to disassociate from the abnormal feelings that I had and the, you know, the craziness at night and the constant anxiety and depression.
Because being in my mind at the time, a semi alcoholic jock is better than, you know, sobering, incredibly depressed and anxious person. Those are the lesser of two evils.
00;22;56;00
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah. No, I could I could see that for sure. It's a really great insight for you to share because as parents, we can look at this behavior and it just looks so irrational and so destructive that we we are like, how can they not be seen this? Right? And so for you, it really we talk about this all the time.
It really was a solution. And I'm sure at first it was a really good solution, like, wow, this really works. And then over time it works a little bit less and a little bit less. And you've got to sort of, you know, prop up all the balls in the air to keep everything going. I'm curious if you remember one of the situations where, you know, you talked about having healthy boundaries.
Do you remember any sort of interaction with your mom or your dad where you recognized, oh, they're doing something different, Like my mom's holding some boundaries and what that felt like from from your perspective.
00;24;00;06
Colin
The primary example that comes to mind is what led to where I am right now. When I woke up in jail and I didn't have the immediate bail out of my parents, which I had had for a majority of my life, regardless whether they felt like they were enabling or pushing me away, I always knew that I could gear the situation to get what I wanted.
I'll make you so confused that you're just happy that I'm here and, you know, smiling kind of thing. I honestly, when I woke up in that cell and I felt alone for the first time in a way that I never had before, and I needed that pushing someone away, you know, it still just depended on the mindset of the person who's getting pushed away.
Like in that moment, for whatever reason clicked, everything was coming down and how low my life had gotten that it was like, I have to figure this out, or I'm going to be repeating this cycle for the rest of my life. You know, my parents can bail me out, you know, which they didn't right away, which was great because jail is awful.
And I learned my lesson very quickly. But if I hadn't felt alone, that I need to take some responsibility and ownership for what I had been doing in my life, I would have still been on the same cycle of I'm going to go exponentially screw up my life and then come crawling back to mom and dad and say, Help me fix me because I'm praying on their, you know, caring nature.
00;25;33;00
Brenda
Right? Yes. And I think we hate to hear that as parents, that our kids are able to manipulate our emotions and our feelings and our actions. But it's a consistent theme that I hear when I talk to people who are in recovery. So and I know that's not always easy to talk about, too, like I did that, you know, I knew exactly how to gaslight my mom to make her think that she was the crazy one and I was the sane one.
So I appreciate you saying that because I think it's something that parents need to hear because the message that we tell ourselves is, well, if I hold this boundary or if I don't bail them out of jail or I do whatever, they're going to think I don't love them. When your parents started to do that, did you think, Oh, they don't love me anymore?
00;26;20;05
Colin
I'm sure I thought of that, but only in a selfish sense to get what I wanted, you know, not the fact that they were loving me less. But that meant that I could control the situation less. Looking back on it, love was irrelevant. Now that I have almost three years sober and I feel like I'm finally starting to be able to love in a proper sense, I had no concept of what that meant.
00;26;44;08
Colin
So love was just for the equal sign next to it, ability to get what I want. And that was the end of it. So it you know, I have more of an X dream approach. I'm hard on it now just because, you know, going back like so thank you for the honesty. That's the only way I can operate.
Or I fall back into the manipulative mindset that is making in crafting my own reality to get what I want. I am a very black and white person when it comes to that, and I have to choose to be if we're going to choose white as the good side white, I have to be fully on the white side with the honesty and, you know, just being where I'm at and what it was in the past.
I didn't love in the past. I still try to figure out how to love. You know, I still sometimes have to fight off the tendencies to want to manipulate my parents to get what I want, because that's the easy way. But now I have to I have to choose the hard way, which is, you know, waking up. I was up at 2 a.m. today to freaking get some business stuff done and that's hard and it sucks, but, you know, it sucks less than, you know, using love as a tool to get what I want and not have a relationship with my parents.
00;28;04;24
Brenda
If you're here listening to Hope Stream, I'm guessing you might be glad to know there are other resources that you can take advantage of as you work on getting your family to a better place. We've now combined all the information you need into one simple space called Hope Stream Community. It's where you can learn about our private online communities.
For moms and dads, our retreats are educational offerings and of course, the podcast host Dream Community is a nonprofit organization that exists solely to help you navigate this challenging season in life and to be connected, educated and taken care of so that you're better equipped to help your child make positive change in their lives. You are not helpless when your child misuses substances, and we're here to give you the tools and information you need.
After the episode, take a look at Hope Stream Community dot org to find what we offer. Now back to the show. Cindy I would love to kind of shift over to you for a little bit. And as you're watching your son self destruct and you're you know, he's in a different state, he's going to the school. Was there a little bit of a sense of like, well, he's at this amazing baseball academy?
Like he must it sounds like he was able to hold it together, at least to some degree. I'm kind of wondering what was going on in your world during during that whole time.
00;29;38;11
Cindy
It was real fear and panic because Collin was a master not only of manipulating us, but of using other people, you know? And very charming, right? Collin Charismatic. And he could talk his way into getting what he wanted wherever he was. And he burned a lot of bridges along the way. But there would always be someone new that would come along and help him and assist him.
Even when we were putting our boundaries or setting our boundaries. And I want to go back over boundaries a little bit, but there was always someone that would help him. What was really huge for me to not be so paralyzed by all that was going on around me with him and just the constant traumatic events that were happening was that I had to really lean into this willingness thing.
You know, like you have to be willing to to lean into the pain, into the suffering that you experience. And instead of fighting it and trying to least I had it was the only way I could come to accept the situation for what it was is to be able to like, okay, this is really happening and I've got to sit here with this, you know, because in the first few years, five years, I was on the computer researching, talking to every expert, getting bad advice from so many people and just striving, thriving, trying to work it all out to save him.
And I had to come to the realization that I'm most likely not going to be his savior. And I've got to sit here in this pain and accept what's going on before I can move forward and have an opportunity to even try to make a connection with him, you know? And so that was hugely important. And I had to do that work before I could even think about a real boundary that's to create health, safety and peace within the family boundaries of parents make.
00;31;43;02
Cindy
And it's not to try to change him is to try to set an example of what a healthy, peaceful, safe family looks like. And so I had to really come to accept that this is my lot. Never in my wildest dreams. I mean, there's substance abuse in my family, believe me, and my husband's family. Believe me. But we thought we'd just like, sail over that and that wouldn't happen to us, too, you know?
And so to really, like, take that part of me that feels accomplish and like, I can do anything and say, I can't I can't do this, I have to lean into this, suffer a little bit, feel it, allow it to flow through me. And then maybe after I process those feelings, I can start looking at what does a safe, healthy family that's intact and, you know, living in harmony look like And what kind of then you have to do the real work, right?
The hallmark of really sitting down with your partner or just on your own and and map out what does this look like? Like what would dinner look like? What does waking up in the morning look like? You know, what do all these things during the day look like? Like, what do we expect out of our children now that they're an adult?
What do we expect? And you know what? What looks healthy, What looks safe? And and then, you know, back that up by a lot of conversations and saying X, Y, and Z, this is the way we're living. This is the way we're doing it. In the past, it probably didn't look like this, but we're changing. Dad and I have come up with this and this is the way it's going to be going forward, and then you can set those boundaries.
00;33;17;23
Brenda
It sounds like a period of time where you said, okay, this is where we are. And you talked about leaning into the pain. And I wonder if you could give an example of what that might look like, because I think that's one of the most difficult concepts. First for people to understand is, well, wait, I'm going to fight this thing.
I'm going to confront it head on. This is our battle, I think, for people listening, they might hear, well, wait a minute, what is she talking about? Leaning into the pain. So could you talk a little bit about that?
00;33;49;15
Cindy
What I can say is that I knew it up here in my head, but not in my heart. But I knew there were practices that would get me there and the practices that I believe in are spiritual practices. And I do a lot of visualization of myself sitting on Jesus's lap and talking to him about what I'm feeling and how scared I am and making myself sit there, you know, and not get up and go do something else.
I did a lot of rain with Tara Brock, you know. Yeah, she is. Yeah, that's a great practice. I did a lot of self-compassion work just reading the books of Christian Neff and other people that I knew that I could get in touch with my feelings if I didn't know how to do it myself. I had to use resources to help me do that.
I had some tools that I used that I kept in my back pocket. I would text Collin that I loved in that I was thinking about him, but I wouldn't engage in anything else at the time if if he would, you know, call me or need something or some something would come up, I would use the I'm so sorry you're going through this, because what I wanted to do was act right.
I wanted to solve it for him, like, whatever that thing is. And I was always, you know, solving his problems or trying to solve problems or whether he wanted me to or not before he'd even ask. He never would even have to ask the question. Right. So I learned how to just empathize and say, Oh, I'm so sorry, I've gone through that.
00;35;36;24
Cindy
And then the other thing is that when he would come at me with certain things that he demanded of me or whatever was going on at the time, I just say, Hey, that doesn't work for me. Sorry, that doesn't work for me. So I had to kind of like be quiet and be still in my relationship with him and stay out of his lane and out of his business, like not even ask him about his life.
I couldn't even do that during this time because hearing about it was was just would stir things up. I needed to do the work first. There's this verse that I would if I didn't know what to do. I'd say over and over again, this is Psalm 80, which is Restore as Lord God Almighty, shine your face upon us so we will be saved.
And I just pray that over and over again. And I just was still it took a while. I mean, when I say a while, probably 6 to 8 months until I started feeling like I was coming out of the depression of it, you know, where I could, okay, I can start engaging with Collin again and I can start really and asking him questions out of curiosity versus judgment, you know, because before that, I was so pissed off.
Brenda I was mad. Yeah. And I would, you know, judge him, judge, judge, judge, criticize, tell him what to do. You know, all those things that just aren't helpful. And they're certainly not loving. You know, I want to know the real call and who he really is. So I try to ask questions like that and was able to after I did my work.
00;37;20;12
Cindy
But it wasn't until I processed through some of this myself. So.
00;37;26;09
Brenda
Mm. I wonder, is there a I'm just curious how you go from really pissed off Cindy Judge been telling your son what to do to contemplate a quiet, prayerful, curious Cindy Like what happened to make that shift? Because I think that's the goal that everybody's looking for.
00;37;52;14
Cindy
Okay, so this is where I really realize the importance of self-compassion practice, because until you have compassion for yourself, you can have compassion for the other. When I started doing the work of my trauma in childhood, you know, of the times that, you know, I, you know, if I really get down, down to it, you know, I grew up not feeling understood, not feeling valued.
It doesn't mean that my parents didn't try hard to do that. Right. Know the people in my life. It's just that somehow I got that message along the way. Yeah. And I had to really dive into what my trauma was and what was holding me back from loving, having an open heart and loving the person who's wounded instead of taking it so personally, you know?
And I think it starts with us forgiving ourselves and being just as loving and kind and looking at ourselves and holding our hearts tenderly. And then if we hold our own heart tenderly, we can hold someone else's heart tenderly. And I think that's the real shift.
00;39;06;00
Colin
There is a documentary on Netflix called Stutz, and it's about Jonah Hill's therapist. And there's a part where he's talking about complete detachment from the things closest to you so that you can fully be invested in them. Because until you've completely accepted that eventually everything's going to end, then you can work back from it in a less emotional sense.
But everything you know, I'm going to pass away one day and my brother is and my girlfriend is and my parents are, and I have to accept that. And I don't know whether that's going to be tomorrow or in 50 years, but that will happen. And once you fully accept that and accepted the worst part of that relationship, that the worst thing that could happen in that relationship, then you can start looking at it from a more logical sense and I use this tool within myself as like a preventative measure for making sure I don't relapse.
Like about once every month or two I spend. And I hate doing it, but I spend 5 to 10 minutes visualizing my brother dying because that's literally the worst thing that can happen in my life. And if I can somewhat accept that, then I can work back in a value the crap out of him every time I get to see him and be I know I'll be more prepared for it when it does happen.
00;40;37;19
Brenda
I think that's a really valuable tool. The show's called do, say, Studs.
00;40;41;29
Colin
Studs, SOTU TV, I believe. Fantastic Hour and a half. If you want to dig really deep into yourself. His big thing is a toolbox. If you're not prepared for something, you're not going to know what to do and you're going to fall back to your lowest emotional level response, which at the end of the day is going to be run away from pain and run towards pleasure, which, you know, we already know what that is for the addict towards the alcohol, the parent, the running away from the addict going back towards alcohol.
00;41;13;03
Brenda
But good tip. I love that. I will put a link in the show notes to that show. Cindy, what did boundaries when you finally figure this out, you're like, okay, this is what we need to do. What did that look like? It's hard to sort of just imagine them theoretically, because we're all in these situations where somebody is going to be listening and they're like, okay, but wait, my kid's going to call me at 7:00 tonight asking for money, and I know what they're going to spend it on, but they're going to tell me that it's for this.
And I don't you know what I mean? Like, we're all in this very real situation. So I'm just wondering, what is it Maybe look like a couple of examples. But then also, what does that feel like to you once once you realize it was really something that you had to do.
00;41;59;15
Cindy
I would have to say that one of the hardest boundaries to set was when Colin came home from his second college. We told Colin that he could come home for three months and that he had to have another place to live. And we gave him a specific date and we tried to live as best as we could, and there were some boundaries in there that Colin continued to break, you know, drinking in his room or dipping or whatever it was that he was doing.
And we chose to just allow that to happen because we told him he could have three months and the three months came and went and Colin did nothing to find a job or to get a place.
00;42;54;16
Cindy
May 23rd came around. And on May 22nd I said, Colin, just a reminder, you're going to have to lay your head somewhere else tomorrow night. And he did what he's good at and he blew and told me all kinds of things that I won't repeat. And I just said, You, we decided this and this is non-negotiable. He will not be here tomorrow night.
And anyways, Colin does. He's incredibly capable. But my husband and I were just like, biting our nails, and so, like, I. Oh, no, what's going to happen? And are we going to, you know, what's he going to do and is he going to be homeless? And do we need to call the police and change the locks and all those things?
And instead Colin managed to find an apartment or a room to rent and a house within 24 hours. And it was.
00;43;49;01
Brenda
Of course he did.
00;43;49;24
Cindy
And it wasn't a great little parting between us. But I have to say, when he left the house and we set that big, huge boundary that was a huge shift in our relationship and that we started being able to have meals together out. He started coming around a little bit more for little visits because he was living as an adult, not as a college student, but as an adult on his own.
And that was probably the most significant boundary I think, that we set that made a real difference and his use continued for another five years.
00;44;25;00
Brenda
Yeah, that's a big one.
00;44;26;20
Cindy
It's a big one. It also shows you how I mean, there was improvement, don't you think, Colin and yourself, during that time, even though you were still using we talk about this, Brenda, how you can be there can be improvement. Mm hmm. Absolute sobriety. Doesn't need to always be. We need to also look at the improvements along the way.
Right? There was a lot of improvement there, don't you think, Colin?
00;44;49;19
Colin
Yeah, well, I was basically told to figure it out, which I could always do. But when your parents are figuring it out for you and emotionally or regulating for you, why would you do it yourself when alcohol is there? That's more fun than doing all those things, all the adult stuff that I should have been doing. That was the first time where I that I can remember where I boundary was held to.
And I really felt that they actually meant it, like there was no wiggle room for me to B.S. my way out of it. And then it did change things for a while because I had to come up with I think rent was $850. So I was like, I got to have an honorary doctorate enough to eat and then whatever is left over is for a reason.
But we had booze, so it was definitely improvement and it was not anywhere near living. And I was still almost just as much caught up in the anxiety and depression that I was trapped in before. But at least I had a little sense of self efficacy within my own life, which was a shift from subconsciously. I really felt like I was still a child, taken care of by my parents.
My bottle just happened to be Jack Daniel's right. I'm never going to fully have it figured out, but I have it a little bit more figured out now.
00;46;06;23
Brenda
Before we wrap up, is there anything that either of you would like to share with a parent who's listening, who's in the thick of it, who's got a Colin or a pre recovery? Colin Who's you know, it's scary, it's sad, it's frustrating, it's terrifying. Any thoughts or encouragement that you would want to impart?
00;46;30;27
Cindy
You have to deal with your own fear, your anxiety and your own fame before you can truly be present, a true present in your child's life and set the appropriate boundaries. We can try it, but you're being bombed back and forth. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't for sure. And that's always the case. But it takes such courage and I'm just praying for each and every one of those mamas out there on the stream say, I know you got the courage, I know it's there, and I'm so glad you have this space to come to.
00;47;07;09
Colin
I would just say that it's a long term game and you have to look at it as such. It's not a game, but you have to look towards the long term with it. A single day is not going to solve anything and hopefully a single day won't completely end everything. But if you're looking within the narrow time frame of the person, the addiction is yelling at me again and I'm scared for them and you're stuck inside that narrow mindset.
You're not going to be able to get to a point where that isn't the everyday reality from the parental side. If you're not able to conquer your own fears, that will always consume your judgment. And then you're not in a place where you can even begin to help the person that's really suffering.
00;47;50;17
Brenda
Yes, Well, that I think is the perfect way to wrap it up from from the voice of somebody who's been on both sides. So I can't say thank you enough for taking the time to do this and share with families who are just trying to figure it out. And I know both of your wisdom will be much appreciated.
So thank you. Thank you so much.
00;48;11;07
Cindy
Thank you for your.
00;48;13;18
Brenda
Okay. That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane Gqom forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also want to download a free e-book I wrote. It's called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when My Son Was Misusing Drugs.
It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda's income. Forget hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself.
And I will meet you right back here next week.