addiction psychologist by day, parenting a child through addiction by night, with Julie
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Guest: Julie
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about this episode:
At the time Julie’s teenage son began misusing drugs, she had been a clinical psychologist specializing in addiction for more than 15 years. In her own words, “I know most of what there is to know, and we’re still here anyway. How did that happen?” After working with families in the area of addiction for years, Julie was now one of “those parents.” This personal experience layered onto her academic expertise gives her a unique, holistic perspective that can benefit us all. Join us for this incredibly vulnerable and enlightening conversation.
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Hola! Today, while you're listening to Hopestream, I am practicing what I preach and spending a few days of downtime in Mexico, which means I'm recording this way in advance and doing all the prep work so that I can disconnect for a bit and recharge my batteries.
I tell you this A, because I'm super excited to get in the sun and I love Mexico. And B, because I want to be sure, you know, I take really good care of myself so that I have the bandwidth and the energy to do this work and help you take good care of your family. You know, I talk about self-care a lot, and I wanted to make this point because if I showed up here every week frazzled and frantic and underprepared and exhausted, how helpful would I be for you?
How would that feel in your nervous system to be wondering if I was going to show up or worse, if when I got here, I was going to require you to be responsible for my feelings and my emotions, that would not be optimal for sure. So this obviously translates to you as well. If you feel guilty at having a chance to restore yourself or take a bath, go on a hike or a bike ride or whatever, feels your cup.
Remember that you're doing that for your family so that you can be the best version of you when they need you most. A few weeks ago, I got to have a very rare conversation with someone I respect immensely. She is a clinical psychologist who has a specialty in the field of addiction and mood disorders. She's been working with clients for over 20 years and turns out she's also a human being.
That is because she's also a mom. You might have a perception, like I did, that for people with a lot of letters after their name, especially those ones who know a lot about mental health and addiction. We just figured their kids would be good to go. Well, you get to be a fly on the wall today and hear how that isn't necessarily true.
You'll get to hear how even with a doctorate degree in psychology, a decades of experience with clients, when it's your own child, all bets are off and your clinical hat morphs into a regular old mom and dad hat. I'm so very grateful for Julie, who, by the way, we did keep anonymous to protect her son, to be willing to share her family's experience when her son started a very unhealthy relationship with substances and when he needed treatment, she is still in it.
The boat has not settled yet and she shares their rocky journey and what it's like to by day where her professional hat treating clients with addiction and mental health struggles and by night returning to mom mode and struggle just like the rest of us, it's pretty priceless. So thank you, Julie, for sharing. I can't wait to share the conversation with you and I'll see you on the other side.
00;04;12;13
Brenda
Welcome, Julie, to Hope Stream. I'm very grateful for you doing this, having this conversation with me and doing this because I think it's a perspective and you have some insight that not a lot of people have. So welcome to the conversation.
00;04;29;03
Julie
Thanks, Brenda. Great to be here.
00;04;31;07
Brenda
Yeah. And we're keeping you anonymous, mostly because you have a young person who's currently in treatment and we just want to protect his privacy. And I'm always very cognizant of that because I know for a lot of us as parents were like, we're we're finally over it. We're like, Yeah, okay, I don't even care if people know what I'm going through.
But for our kids sake, a lot of times I just like to protect their privacy. So we're just going to keep you anonymous in that way. But how are you feeling about chatting about this mix?
00;05;07;29
Julie
You know, I think I think it's great. And I think the community that you've created here and the ability and the privilege to share my experience with other parents is really important to me. And also a little nervous because talking about this in a more public way is a little bit different and it's bigger. So a whole bunch of feelings. There's probably some others in there, too.
00;05;41;07
Brenda
Yes. Yes, I know. Well, the reason why we wanted to have this conversation is because you are a professional in the mental health field. And specifically you work with people around addiction and around substance use and so as a mom, it's kind of like you have to split yourself like mom therapist. And I imagine that has to be hard because for, you know, for somebody like me, I was an advertising person.
Like, I didn't even it was like zero zero understanding for me around any of this. And so it's a different entry point for you as a mom. So maybe you can take us through whatever level of sort of background and history to where you found yourself going. Oh, my gosh, wait a minute. My two worlds are starting to intermingle, which had to have been a little interesting, but maybe just share that with us so we can get some context for how you came into this situation.
00;06;54;26
Julie
Sure. My son is 17 and for the most part, as things come up with kids, as they do throughout his life, I've been able to really sort of ask for referrals in a general way for people to get support and that kind of stuff. And, you know, at 17, he's one of those kids that I believe these teenagers and young adults were hit incredibly, incredibly hard by the pandemic.
I can't say that that's really what cause where we are. There's lots of roads that have led us here. And gratefully today, he's in a good place. But things really started to spiral for him at that time. And it was a bit of an intersection of the pandemic, you know, living in a city where New York City, but also in a world where marijuana and other drugs are really different and really easily accessible and can go very hidden from parents.
Things spiraled out of control pretty quickly, pretty quickly in our home, and I suddenly found myself in situations that were exactly the ones I've been talking to parents about for many, many years now. And to my clients about. And it was a really wild experience to be kind of recognize. I think, oh my goodness, this is actually happening to us right now.
And it was at that point that I realized I had to sort of put down some of the the professional barriers in order to be able to get my son the help that he needed. And so I started reaching out to different people, sober house rehabs, sober coaches, you know, wilderness programs, all these places that I had talked to as a referral source and saying, Hey, I'm calling you for a very different reason this time.
00;09;19;11
Julie
And and a psychiatrist and just really needing to self-disclose and say, here I am, you know, this is my family now that I'm calling you about today.
00;09;27;18
Brenda
Yeah, that had to have been very surreal. So if I did the math right, he would have been about 14 when he started. When you started noticing like, okay, things are things are starting to head downhill. And I and I hear that over and over and over about COVID. And I do think that there's just a huge misunderstanding and and a lack of knowledge around what was happening with our kids during that time.
I agree. Did you ever think like when you were working with families prior to this? Hmm, I don't know what this experience is like. I wonder if my professional advice is landing right or because I know, you know, like I teach craft and I teach the ITC and all these different things, and because I've lived it, I know how it lands with a kid at 3:00 in the morning when they come home wasted.
So I just wonder how that was before you had the personal experience.
00;10;25;12
Julie
Yeah, you know what I mean? So I think for me, this kind of information really comes in retrospect. I remember when I first became a mom and I recognized that I had been teaching parenting skills to people having never had children before. Right. And I thought, well, that's insane. Yes.
00;10;51;11
Brenda
It's like going to a male OB-GYN, like.
00;10;55;13
Julie
Right.
00;10;56;01
Brenda
It's like you can tell me all day long what it's going to feel like to have a baby. But yeah.
00;11;03;09
Julie
Actually, that's exactly it. Just having lived experience. And I think that as clinicians in general, we can do a really good job and we can really be helpful. And sometimes in a way, people don't want live experience like they want to go just to someone who they can be completely open about their own story and they have to worry nothing about your story.
So I absolutely think there's a benefit to that. Yeah, to be fully honest, my son's always been a little tricky. So yes, incredible and creative and wonderful and I've always had to sort of use these skills even before it was a substance use disorder. And again, I think most of these skills are good with all kinds of kids, whether they have problems or not or with your partners.
Right? Yeah. So but now on the other side, the depth of my understanding is so much greater and having that personal lived experience and just truly navigating the systems, trying to understand really how much all of this costs and how scary that is to go out and get Narcan. You know, I mean, he wasn't necessarily using opiates in that way that we knew of that were scary, but he was risky enough that we kind of thought, gosh, we should probably have this in the House just in case.
Yeah. And as you said, surreal. I mean, that was very much the experience of standing at that counter at CVS and asking for this.
00;12;54;0
Brenda
It gets really real.
00;12;56;03
Julie
It gets really, really real.
00;12;58;11
Brenda
When you're standing there and I have been there, you're standing at the pharmacy and you immediately like people talk about stigma all day long. I felt it. I don't know. I'd love to hear your experience, but I felt it when I was standing there. I was at a Walgreens sent out to CVS, but it wasn't even the pharmacist.
It was just the cashier. And I said, You know, I need to get Narcan. And he just looked at me and he goes, Well, you have to have a prescription for that. And I said, Actually, I don't know. There is a standing order, right? So I start educating this kid who's like 16 years old, working the cash register in the pharmacy.
And then he was like, he is literally looking at me like I'm a drug dealer. Like he doesn't even know what Narcan is. So then he goes, Well, I need to go get the pharmacist for that kind of looking at me with this just really negative. I'll call it negative. Look. And then the pharmacist coming over and like, what do you need?
Narcan And everybody around you is listening, right? And if anybody knows what it is, they have just now summed up, looking at you as, you know something, it was a horrible.
00;14;10;13
Julie
Horrible, horrible, horrible. I completely like I have goosebumps just hearing you tell the story because I, I totally remember exactly where I was and what it felt like and and all of that being a very, very similar experience. And, you know, plus the terror that you're feeling in that moment, thinking, I actually have to live with this. You know, this is this is in my house.
It's still in my house because I'm glad to have it again, even though he's doing okay in not living here currently. But what if someone in the building needs it, right? Everyone should have Narcan. I probably should throw out my purse in case I need it when I'm walking down the street. So but the personal experience of of going there and picking it up.
And I think the first place I went, they actually didn't even have it. So. Right. So experiencing all the hurdles directly as a parent to getting the help that your child needs, so many barriers to getting the help that you need.
00;15;11;05
Brenda
Right. And you and I are highly educated white women. English is our first language, right? Like we have so many advantages over so many people who are not as privileged as us. And then you're trying to navigate a system that is hard to figure out. I mean, you have a Ph.D. like if you can't figure it out, I don't know who is going to figure it out.
So it's just, yeah, you start to see I'm sure there were layers that you started seeing that in your clinical head and in your clinical role. You wouldn't have encountered because why would you? Right. You're not in that situation.
00;15;52;01
Julie
Yeah. Yeah. You can kind of intellectually get it. Yeah. But feeling it right.
00;15;56;02
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah. That the visceral feeling of oh my gosh, I'm getting Narcan to have in my house because I need it, not because it's the right thing to do as a mental health professional or whatever. Because I may need it to save my kid's life. Totally different ballgame. I am just wondering if now with with this lived experience, how are your interactions with clients different than they may have been before?
00;16;26;09
Julie
Yeah, it's an interesting question and lots of lots of layers to it, I think. And I'll have to send this to our family therapist so she can do this episode. You know, I had a lot of feelings about wilderness, and you and I talked about this a little bit, and I really was very frightened about it. I probably, unfortunately, and I deeply regret this, advised against it in very extreme ways.
The the I feel terrible just remembering that. But, you know, we only know what we know, right? Fortunately, I was able to learn about some good incredible good as and even a you know, programs wilderness programs that are out there and I was able to send my son with the help of our family therapist because she really said Julie, your denials profound, your not seeing how incredibly terrifying and dangerous the situation is at that point upon leaving rehab, they said he needs to go to wilderness.
Upon being administratively discharged from a sober living, they said he needs to go to wilderness. And I kept saying he's not going to go to the wilderness. They can afford it. It's not a good thing. And I finally heard her and honestly didn't know what else to do at that point. And so I started making those calls, you know, and I think if anything, I've gotten a little more confident in the ability to not push, but to help people make decisions that are really, really hard.
And I think my work used to be maybe a little more cautious around making some of those difficult decisions. And it's still a work in progress and it will continue to evolve over time where I land with this. But, you know, I don't want to go back to the old way it used to be where we tell people what to do because I'm really part of a, you know, a community of people that are trying to be less judgmental, more meeting people where they are, more open to engaging, you know, your loved one in this decision.
00;18;59;23
Julie
And there are times when in my case, things get really, really scary and you need to make that hard decision to save your child's life. And I feel or to potentially save their life. And I feel much more comfortable now being in that seat. And I also feel like it's my responsibility to some degree to help other clinicians who or parents, you know, my my, the the parents that are out there that I'm friends with to make those difficult decisions themselves as well.
So I think I'm landing more in the middle with that than I used to be.
00;19;42;22
Brenda
Yeah, that's a it's an interesting role because you do wear both hats. And what was it that you started to hear about? Wilderness. The wilderness option that made you more open? Was it just the fact that, oh my gosh, you're in a really scary situation, we need to do something quickly? Or were there some things that with your professional hat on, you are like, Huh, That makes a lot of sense.
00;20;06;10
Julie
So I don't work with young people at this point. I did earlier in my career, so I didn't have a lot of direct 1 to 1 contact with wilderness programs. I don't work with a lot of teens. I work with many teens, really, and and not too many young adults. So I didn't know much, to be honest. And when we started getting these refer this these recommendations from so many providers that I trusted, and he kept my son kept not being able to stabilize in any of these other programs, I kind of asked around within my system of people who had had positive experiences with wilderness, and I got the names of a couple of
places, and I remember the night I made my first call to Alamance and I after I hung up the phone, I went, Wow, that is so different. That is so different than what I thought I was going to get on the other end of the line. And I thought, you know what? I can handle that. If if it comes to this point, I can handle that.
And, you know, you know, some of the story that turned out to be one of the best things we've ever done. I mean, my son did try to run away at Wilderness, but he also, you know, ended up a cactus in his feet because there's not that far to run in the desert in the middle of the night with no shoes.
00;21;36;07
Brenda
Exactly. Yeah. They kind of prepare for that.
00;21;38;29
Julie
Yeah. Yeah. They were prepared. But, you know, he stuck it out and he said to us at some point, everything else was too easy. You know, it was not abusive at all. If anything, it's incredibly compassionate. And they do so much work there and so much work on themselves. And he said everything else was too easy. I just I just didn't invest.
I didn't invest like I needed to be removed from everything that was comfortable to be able to really do the work. And that was a pretty tremendous turning point for our family and for him.
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00;22;25;02
Brenda
Hi, I'm taking a quick break because I want to let you know about the private online community I created and host for moms who have kids misusing drugs or alcohol. It's where I hang out between the episodes. So I wanted to share a little bit about it. This place is called The Stream, and it isn't a Facebook group.
It's completely private away from all social media sites where you start to take care of yourself. Because through all of this, who is taking care of you? The stream is a place where we teach the craft, approach and skills to help you have better conversations and relationships, and we help you get as physically, mentally and spiritually healthy as possible so that you can be even stronger for your son or daughter.
You can join us free for two weeks to see if it's the right kind of support for you and learn more about all the benefits that you get as a member at the Stream Community icon. And I'll see you there. Now let's get back to the conversation.
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And there are kids, I believe, who exactly what you said. Everything else is too easy because they are so brilliant, they're so resourceful, they're so determined and all of those things.
And wilderness really does give them the opportunity to dig in and really learn so much about themselves that I don't know how you could get that in any other setting. That's what I always come back to, is there isn't really another setting where you can get to that level with a young person, right, with somebody, you know, if you're in your forties and this is probably more of the experience that you have now in working with people, you know, at my age I could say, okay, I'm gonna opt to go to treatment and I could be in some place in Sedona raising Mt. Hood, and I could do that work there because I'm an adult.
00;24;28;09
Brenda
But when you're 14, 15, 16, or even in your early twenties, where else are you going to get that opportunity? You know.
00;24;36;27
Julie
Totally. And so many distractions, you know, even within a rehab, but not all of them. I know, But for my son, you know, there were still distractions for him that he could avoid doing the work and the desert was the place where he was able to do that. So, you know, so I feel grateful that I can be more confident helping people make the decisions to to do the really hard thing, because that is a really, really hard decision.
00;25;15;12
Brenda
It is so hard. Did he was he transported there or did he go?
00;25;20;01
Julie
We had heard from a friend who was in one of the support groups we were in, in rehab, that they did not do transport. And she said, if there's anything that I could recommend to you, if you ever need to do this, do not transport yourself, do not transport your child yourself. And look, every family is different. Everyone's got their own.
But we knew our kid and we knew that it was going to be very scary and could have gone very poorly. And so we did some research. There are some amazing transport companies out there, incredible transport companies and they picked him up from the sober living house where he was in the middle of the night. And he was initially a little surprised and we were didn't sleep a wink that night.
Right. But they kept in contact with us the whole time, updated us on where they were. You know, we you know, we're talking to him now. We're on our way to JFK. We're getting ready to board, you know, for Utah, like the whole thing. You know, we just took him to in and out to grab a burger before, you know, he watched office on the plane.
Like they were so like, wow, you know. Yeah, it's he handled it.
00;26;41;06
Brenda
Yeah. It is such a different experience. And I think you imagine as a parent and I just want to say to that there because there's so much controversy around this topic, we could do a whole episode and there are there are wilderness programs and hybrid programs that do not take kids by transport. They have to arrive with their parent in for the right child.
That is wonderful and and I would say idyllic, right? If you can do that, that's awesome. And there are places like that. So I think it's just important to mention that there are those kids in those programs and those opportunities. However, if you are like me and like you and I was fearful for my child's life, you don't have that opportunity.
Yeah, and so there are such amazing transport options now with compassionate transport, trauma, informed transport like so amazing thing. And what have you had a conversation with him about that experience?
00;27;45;27
Julie
He feels very positively about it. And this is where the skills that I knew, you know, even though they didn't keep him out of the problem, they got us to the problem in a very different way. Right? Right. Because we had had conversations and we had said, if this doesn't work, this is what's next. If this is what happens, this is what's going to happen, because we were very clear about costs and benefits, not that costs and benefits, behaviors and outcomes in a very compassionate and firm way.
Right. So he knew and in retrospect, I guess he can 100% say that that is absolutely the way it needed to happen. And that I think for him, it actually helped him to regulate and he's got a different dynamic with us. Right. Part of my work has been really because when your child's in treatment, you're not blaming yourself, but you're hopefully looking at what you need to do differently.
And for me, it was really about boundaries and limits and holding him within those. That's my work. And so if I was the person on that plane, you know, I think it could have made him more anxious because he might be able to feel like he could talk me out of it or that, you know, that something different could happen and that his nervous system could relax.
Going with these guys who took such good care of him, and that that was for him and for us, just such a tremendous relief.
00;29;19;07
Brenda
It's really probably one of the most difficult decisions. And I have to imagine at that point, you know, when you know, he's going to be transported, it's 100% mom hat. That's all in that clinical sort of hat is over in the corner on a shelf somewhere, because you start to realize, oh, this is a heart thing like this.
As a mom, you can you can picture them and what's happening and his emotions. And so I think that's really so valuable for you as a clinician because you I think you would just in Iraq, I would imagine you would interact in a different way with if you were to be working with a parent who may be facing that, to have that empathetic lens of this is going to be so hard you can do it.
00;30;17;23
Julie
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you and you and you can do it right, like you said. And you can do it. And it's rare that I would disclose this, but I did end up disclosing it to one client that I have because he was actually going through it at exactly the same time. And, you know, I will thoughtfully, probably throughout my career, self-disclosure as a clinician is always something that we you know, starting in grad school, you talk about and you think about and how much do you disclose and when do you do it?
And, you know, I think there is room for that. And sometimes it'll just be my internal knowing, you know, my internal knowing that I am feeling with you and for you as a person right now to write, not just not just as a psychologist.
00;31;10;01
Brenda
Yeah, right, right. You had talked about and I know this is a big part of when you're when your kiddos in treatment, especially in wilderness, there is so much work that parents do. How is that experience to be on the kind of the receiving end of, okay, mom, you need to read this book or you need to? And it's probably, again, surreal because you're probably also at some point the one who has been recommending some of those books.
But how how did that feel to be on the receiving end of these peers and in potentially colleagues of yours and now you're in a different role? What was that like to be stepping into a different role, you know, as you're being instructed to do your own work?
00;31;55;27
Julie
Yeah, well, it keeps happening. It hasn't stopped, right? It isn't. So we're living right now and they just is in our family session this week. The therapist said, okay, so we talk a lot about attachment styles, so I'm going to send you this attachment questionnaire and I'd like you to fill it out and take a look at your own attachments and.
00;32;19;08
Brenda
Or are you like, we did I write that? Oh, so.
00;32;24;20
Julie
It's really interesting. You know, it's really, really interesting. And I kind of gravitate towards trying to become a better version of myself, a better parent, a better human, a better clinician, you know, all those things. And I have another one who's still at home. She's younger. And so to become a better parent is really a values aligned for me.
So but I you just look at it with a completely different set of eyes wide eyed curiosity, just as a different kind of a student of the information than when I'm wearing my professional hat to those things. Look, I mean, as a psychologist, you never completely separate. You're like you, you know, you're always in it somehow. Like in the first year of grad school, everyone diagnoses themselves with every single condition that's out there.
Just because you can't not look at yourself through this lab. Right. But but the depth of that is just so much greater. And it's interesting and it's really fun. So I'll do my attachment questionnaire. Even I have a strong sense of what my attachment style is. And I will I will send it off.
00;33;48;27
Brenda
Yes, you'll be a good student. Is there a perception when you are in the field as a psychologist or maybe even a psychiatrist? I don't know, or even a physician? Is there a perception that we're going to be okay? Because I know all of this information, like when you have your kids and their toddlers and then they're going into, you know, grade school, Do you think about that as like we got this covered because we have all of this knowledge or are you kind of like the rest of us where you're just like, oh, I hope everything turns out okay?
00;34;26;24
Julie
Well, that that's an interesting intersection there was some hope that I have been trained in and provide training in the most evidence based treatments for addiction. Yeah. With her parents, you know her partners for the direct service to individual clients themselves. So, of course, this is going to be super helpful for us. Right. And this was a fast and furious descent.
And in some ways, I'm grateful for that because we got to jump on this really quickly, whereas it could have been in the background for a very long time. But when your property starts getting sold, you know that things have gotten bad quickly. Yeah, but that information still, I was just looking at it going, I know I think most of what there is to know and we're still here.
We're still here anyway, right? How did that happen? Yeah, it happens.
00;35;40;16
Brenda
It has to be a little jarring because it's like, well, if I can't do this, how does how does that work? I wonder if, you know, knowing all the tools that you do, were you using those and trying those with him and they're just falling flat in. Does that make you question the tools or is it more like, Ha, this just isn't working yet?
00;36;06;27
Julie
Or It didn't really make me question the tools, which is interesting. It really didn't because it's all it all has research behind it and research, I believe. And what continued to be very striking to me was these don't work in the sense that we think what working is doing air quotes for those that aren't seeing this. And it didn't it didn't work for my child.
But what I said to you a few minutes ago is it did work because it didn't stop him from having the problem. But it helped us as parents when we had to make those hard decisions to make them. I tolerated it a lot less. I mean, he his behavior got really out of control much quicker than other kids.
But, you know, we could be sort of floating around here in some slow chronic marijuana use for a very long time.
00;37;15;06
Brenda
Right. Right.
00;37;16;24
Julie
And and not to judge anyone, that is. I understand why people would be in that situation if they did not have the scary things happen that we had happen. So I think that the skills all infused themselves in there but working didn't look the way I thought working would look right.
00;37;38;24
Brenda
Right. And I think that is a really, really important thing to highlight because I hear that when I'm working with parents, it's like, well, I tried that open ended question thing or I tried that, that other thing and it didn't work. And what I tell them is, you know, you have to do it over and over and over.
Like it's not it's not penicillin, it's a vitamin. And so you do it over time and. Exactly what you just said, working looks different for everybody. And it may just be a benefit to you, like you said, like, okay, I'm doing all these things. My kid is not changing, but I'm becoming more confident or I'm becoming. There's more clarity that's coming to me.
Because of this, I'm able to assess the situation with more clarity and more objectivity. And so I think it's an important point because we do you know, we live in such a microwave culture. It's like, well, I want to put this thing in for 30 seconds and then take it out and have it be done. And it's like, that's just not how this works.
00;38;45;29
Brenda
And so I would say for anybody who's listening, who is using craft or is using some of these tools that we put in the stream and in the woods teach, and you feel like, gosh, it's not working. Just know that it probably is. It just hasn't bubbled through yet to where where you look at it and oh, that's working.
But there will be little signs and there will be little drops of evidence along the way that later even you might go back to and go, Oh, that actually was working, right?
00;39;22;24
Julie
Yeah. And I'll tell you, I never missed a yoga class because I was worried what my son was going to do. And that is only, you know, and yoga. I used yoga class kind of metaphorically there, but I kept living my life. Yeah. And that is one of the skills that we talk about, Right. Just self-care in the midst of the chaos.
And it's so hard. And you can you can and and, you know, there were a couple of times where I maybe like, I went, Oh, gosh, sorry, daughter. That was a stressful, you know, but I'm right for the most part. Like I kept my self above water with self-care. And if that's all that I was doing, you know, or, or just kind of stepping away when things were getting heated or allowing natural consequences to happen, not bailing them out.
You know, the night his dad watched his phone from a tracking device go right to the police station and he's like, oh, should I go there? And I'm like, you. Absolutely should not go. No, absolutely you should not go there. Stay away from the police station. And so, you know, these are the skills and also for my son's awareness of, oh, wow, consequences, they're uncomfortable.
00;40;45;24
Julie
So those skills are sort of bubbling under the surface and perhaps helps him get to a place where today, at a young age, she really being sober is very and, you know, who knows what the future will bring. But for now, for him, that's a really, really important mission. Like he wants to put his life back together. He wants to graduate from high school.
00;41;09;01
Julie
He wants to be sober. And in September, October of last year, that wasn't that wasn't on the radar. But all those skills had been in place.
00;41;19;16
Brenda
Yeah. Wow. It's just it's so fascinating. And I'm so grateful for you to have this conversation. And because I know even in the stream, we have many members who are therapists, you know, educational consultants, physicians, pediatricians. And I think hearing from someone like you to say, you know, it happens, it happens, it's.
00;41;45;16
Julie
It's.
00;41;45;25
Brenda
Okay. And, you know, it's because I guess not having that layer, that kind of that burden on on me, maybe that was a benefit. I'm like, wow, I don't know. I'm just an advertising person. I have no idea what to do with this. It kind of gave, you know, if you're not a professional in this field, it gives you the freedom to say, okay, well, now I got to learn a whole new set of skills.
And so I think it's just great that you're speaking out about it, because I know for a fact and I know you know for a fact that people in this profession, their families struggle as well. And it's just the way it is.
00;42;20;25
Julie
Yeah. Yeah. And you know that I also really needed to learn some humility, I think, in there as well. Like I really needed to take my consciously take my psychologist hat off because I was very easily in the business of treatment planning and saying no to the recommendations of the people I trusted. And that actually doesn't make any sense.
So and at some point my son said to me, Well, you know, mom, you're not what's best. You're in the field. I said, Sweetie, one of the things I'm working on because I think he was trying to come home at that point. I think one of the things I'm working on is that we saw what we what Dad and I are giving you is people around you that we really believe in.
And so we are going to believe in them, too, and we're going to trust what they say and we're going to do what they say. We're not going to change course because we're uncomfortable. We're going to follow recommendations. And that was a that was a learning experience. Right. It's like too much information. Too much.
00;43;29;27
Brenda
Right? Yes.
00;43;31;18
Julie
That head off and be the patient. Really let your family be the patient. And that was that was a really important step for me and for us.
00;43;41;28
Brenda
Yeah. Just accepting accepting the same kind of help that you're giving to others has to be a very unique perspective in just like, Oh, okay, now I'm now I'm the one who is receiving. And it can also just be very, I would think, life giving. Like you as a therapist and I know this is a whole nother episode that we can do without, you know, burnout from the healing professions and people who are helpers.
And so you give all day long, that's what you do. And so for you to be the one now to receive, I think would also be just really a a life giving thing for for you and for your family.
00;44;29;04
Julie
Yeah, it's quite amazing. And so I was, I was always that parent and always is a strong word, but I tried my best to be that parent that showed up at the support groups, that showed up for the family sessions that showed up for all of that stuff because having that perspective of being on the other side, I know how important it is for parents to do those things.
And I loved being a participant, you know. But again, I had to make sure that I was staying in my seat as a present, not running the girl, because that's not my job in that moment. My job is to be a parent. But, you know, I, I really tried to show up for myself and to be to do all those things because they are so important.
You can't do this alone, you know? I know sometimes you ask what is what is it that you want people to know? And you've done such a beautiful job with this with Hope Stream. And I just really want people to know that you can't you can't do this alone. It's too big and there's no need to do it alone.
Right? There's so many people out there and so many times I've had to just get on a call and talk to someone else about, you know, being terrified. Yeah. And so just the ability to to be a patient, to receive support and to allow that was really, really important in my journey.
00;45;56;17
Brenda
Yeah, Well, I think that's a beautiful way to wrap it up, actually, because I was just going to ask that questions. Oh, you've read my mind. Well, I am so grateful for you having this conversation. I know that there's there are people out there who I'm sure are in a position that similar either watching one of their kids start to go downhill or they have gone downhill or they're in the middle of it and really questioning that relationship between provider and patient and how how to walk that line in a way that's really healthy for them and for their family.
So this has been amazing. And we'll we'll stay in touch and hope that we hear that your son does continues on his on his path. I know he's in a really great place and yes, excited to see what he does with that that gift of of everything that you've given him.
00;46;52;20
Julie
Yes. Thank you, Brenda. What a wonderful time talking to you, as always, you and to everyone who's listening today.
00;46;59;23
Brenda
Yes. Thank you. Okay. That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane, become forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there. So that's very helpful. You might also want to download a free e-book I wrote.
It's called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.